Central/South American Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Greetings:

Sunday, September 28, 2008
Venezuela Doubles Up On Chinese K-8 Trainer Aircraft Jets

(NSI News Source Info) September 29, 2008: Venezuela has doubled its order for a dozen K-8 trainer aircraft from China. These aircraft cost about $25 million each. China has exported K-8s to several other countries (often at bargain prices), including Myanmar (Burma).

K-8 Trainer Aircraft
The K8 (also called JL-8) is a 4.3 ton, two seat, jet trainer. It can use an American, Chinese or Ukrainian engine. Originally, China was going to just use a 3600 pound thrust American engines. But after the 1989 Chinese crackdown on pro-democracy forces, the United States cut off the supply of engines. This encouraged China to design a similar engine (the WS-11). But China has had a hard time mastering the precise technologies and manufacturing techniques needed to build jet engines. So it has been buying the Ukrainian AI-25TLK, while it works to perfect its own engine design.
The K8 has a cruising speed of 800 kilometers an hour, endurance of four hours and five hard points. It can carry a 23mm cannon in the hard point under the fuselage, and half a ton of bombs, rockets or missiles, from the four hard points on the wings. This gives the aircraft combat capability, at least against a foe with few anti-aircraft weapons. Electronics on the JL-8 are minimal, as it's basically a two seat trainer, to prepare fighter pilots before they climb into anything from a an F-16 to Su-30s (Venezuela has both).
Source: Defense-Technology News at 7:10 PM

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Radar?

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Greetings:

Sunday, September 28, 2008
Venezuela Doubles Up On Chinese K-8 Trainer Aircraft Jets

(NSI News Source Info) September 29, 2008: Venezuela has doubled its order for a dozen K-8 trainer aircraft from China. These aircraft cost about $25 million each. China has exported K-8s to several other countries (often at bargain prices), including Myanmar (Burma).

K-8 Trainer Aircraft
The K8 (also called JL-8) is a 4.3 ton, two seat, jet trainer. It can use an American, Chinese or Ukrainian engine. Originally, China was going to just use a 3600 pound thrust American engines. But after the 1989 Chinese crackdown on pro-democracy forces, the United States cut off the supply of engines. This encouraged China to design a similar engine (the WS-11). But China has had a hard time mastering the precise technologies and manufacturing techniques needed to build jet engines. So it has been buying the Ukrainian AI-25TLK, while it works to perfect its own engine design.
The K8 has a cruising speed of 800 kilometers an hour, endurance of four hours and five hard points. It can carry a 23mm cannon in the hard point under the fuselage, and half a ton of bombs, rockets or missiles, from the four hard points on the wings. This gives the aircraft combat capability, at least against a foe with few anti-aircraft weapons. Electronics on the JL-8 are minimal, as it's basically a two seat trainer, to prepare fighter pilots before they climb into anything from a an F-16 to Su-30s (Venezuela has both).
Source: Defense-Technology News at 7:10 PM

Click to expand...

Radar?

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

The K8 have about 70% of world export market in this class of aircraft, but it's a basic trainer, you get alot for these money, but it's not a L-15, wouldn't expect too much of a radar onboard.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Ok, indicate It because exists a version but modern the K-8V (IFSTA), and pair in that possibility.

I cite:

K-8V (IFSTA)

Hongdu began to develop the K-8V integrated flight test simulation aircraft (IFSTA) in 1991. The aircraft was designed to simulate the aerodynamic characteristics of modern combat aircraft. By inputting different aerodynamic parameters into its flight control computer, the K-8V can simulate the flight profile of a particular aircraft. This enables an aircraft design to be tested before a costly physical prototypes are built. For this purpose, the K-8V is fitted with a dual-redundancy analogue fly-by-wire (FBW) system. The K-8V made its maiden flight in June 1997, and was commissioned in September 1998.

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Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

yehe said:

The K8 have about 70% of world export market in this class of aircraft, but it's a basic trainer, you get alot for these money, but it's not a L-15, wouldn't expect too much of a radar onboard.

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Most basic trainers are propeller aircraft; this market is actually cornered by aircraft like the Pilatus PC-9 (over 250 sold), the Beechcraft T-6 Texan II (over 440 sold) and the Embraer Tucano (over 500 sold) and Super Tucano (over 130 sold).

The more advanced jet trainer market is actually cornered by the BAE Hawk (over 900 aircraft sold, plus an additional 223 as the T-45 Goshawk), the Aermacchi MB-339 (over 200 aircraft sold), and the Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet (over 480 sold).

Compared to these aircraft, the K-8 has less performance overall (its slower, has a shorter range, can carry less, and has less advanced avionics). It is preferable for those nations short on cash or do not have access to Western aircraft, but for those who can afford it and have access, the Western trainers are favoured significantly.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Pointblank said:

Most basic trainers are propeller aircraft; this market is actually cornered by aircraft like the Pilatus PC-9 (over 250 sold), the Beechcraft T-6 Texan II (over 440 sold) and the Embraer Tucano (over 500 sold) and Super Tucano (over 130 sold).

The more advanced jet trainer market is actually cornered by the BAE Hawk (over 900 aircraft sold, plus an additional 223 as the T-45 Goshawk), the Aermacchi MB-339 (over 200 aircraft sold), and the Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet (over 480 sold).

Compared to these aircraft, the K-8 has less performance overall (its slower, has a shorter range, can carry less, and has less advanced avionics). It is preferable for those nations short on cash or do not have access to Western aircraft, but for those who can afford it and have access, the Western trainers are favoured significantly.

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I know that, read as I was talking about export market, not countries which make aircraft for themself.

Besides, BAE Hawk are not in same class as the K-8, the K-8 are considered as a basic/medium trainer, while the BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk are both medium/advanced trainer.

Not to speak of the cost, a Hawk cost more than $20million(£18 million@2003) each, you can almost buy a real fighter for that kind of money, like the FC-1 only cost arounf 15-20million$, I doubt the PLAAF(or most airforces in the world wouldn't) would be very intrested in a such costly none supersonic trainer, if they hade a choice.

While the K-8 is much cheaper with a unit@ $3~3.5 million, for that price usually you can only get a very basic propelled plane.

Even the L15 also cost alot(proberbly one of the reason why PLAAF is going for JL-9 instead), about 13-15million$ each, but at least it's supersonic and have far better aerodynamic.

The best Advanced trainer availible in the world market atm is proberbly the SKorea T-50.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

yehe said:

I know that, read as I was talking about export market, not countries which make aircraft for themself.

Besides, BAE Hawk are not in same class as the K-8, the K-8 are considered as a basic/medium trainer, while the BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk are both medium/advanced trainer.

Not to speak of the cost, a Hawk cost more than $20million(£18 million@2003) each, you can almost buy a real fighter for that kind of money, like the FC-1 only cost arounf 15-20million$, I doubt the PLAAF(or most airforces in the world wouldn't) would be very intrested in a such costly none supersonic trainer, if they hade a choice.

While the K-8 is much cheaper with a unit@ $3~3.5 million, for that price usually you can only get a very basic propelled plane.

Even the L15 also cost alot(proberbly one of the reason why PLAAF is going for JL-9 instead), about 13-15million$ each, but at least it's supersonic and have far better aerodynamic.

The best Advanced trainer availible in the world market atm is proberbly the SKorea T-50.

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The PC-9 is known to have 'jet' like performance at a lower operational cost than any jet propelled trainer; as such with most air forces, they split their training into two segments; the first is time in a basic trainer, such as in a PC-9, where basic airmanship is taught; if the pilot is streamed as a fighter, they move into an advanced trainer, such as the BAe Hawk. Both aircraft are easy to maintain and prepare, and have excellent handling characteristics, often mimicking the higher performance aircraft most pilots fly in eventually.

Which advanced trainer is best is a very subjective; the basic provision is that your advanced trainer should mimic the internal layout of the fighter the pilots eventually fly in, and that they have enough power to fly in the transonic range.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Pointblank said:

The PC-9 is known to have 'jet' like performance at a lower operational cost than any jet propelled trainer; as such with most air forces, they split their training into two segments; the first is time in a basic trainer, such as in a PC-9, where basic airmanship is taught; if the pilot is streamed as a fighter, they move into an advanced trainer, such as the BAe Hawk. Both aircraft are easy to maintain and prepare, and have excellent handling characteristics, often mimicking the higher performance aircraft most pilots fly in eventually.

Which advanced trainer is best is a very subjective; the basic provision is that your advanced trainer should mimic the internal layout of the fighter the pilots eventually fly in, and that they have enough power to fly in the transonic range.

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Well, the PC-9 cost about $7.5million per unit, more than double the price of a K-8 which cost around $3-3.5 million, and although it's a good propelled plane with near jet performance I seriously doubt it can ever be better than a a real jet like the K-8, the K-8 outperformes PC-9 in pretty much every aspect with a wide margin.

There is a good reason why K-8 is sweeping the market, it is an extremely cost competitive and capable trainer in it's class.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

yehe said:

Well, the PC-9 cost about $7.5million per unit, more than double the price of a K-8 which cost around $3-3.5 million, and although it's a good propelled plane with near jet performance I seriously doubt it can ever be better than a a real jet like the K-8, the K-8 outperformes PC-9 in pretty much every aspect with a wide margin.

There is a good reason why K-8 is sweeping the market, it is an extremely cost competitive and capable trainer in it's class.

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A quarter of the cost for the T-6 Texan II is for the Martin Baker USMk16LA zero zero ejection seats, which is world class. And from how prevalent that specific seat is in Western fighter aircraft (and how many lives it has saved), its well worth the money. And in a training environment, the ability to bail out safely is a key consideration.

Furthermore, the T-6 Texan II has a more advanced avionics package; it comes with an all glass cockpit that includes a Head-Up Display (HUD), six Multi-function display (MFD) and Hands On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS).

Due to the numbers produced, the T-6 Texan II is also very similar in price; current price for the T-6B Texan II is $5 million dollars. Operational cost is also lower; turboprops are cheaper to operate, and can conduct more missions per day, which increases the training value compared to jet trainers.

As stated, the basic trainer market is cornered by turboprops; the PC-9, PC-7, T-6 Texan II, and the Embraer Tucano and Super Tucano collectively make up for over 2000 aircraft sold; 4 times the sales of the K-8. Furthermore, the type of sales is important; the sales are going toward nations that have money and have choice; The K-8 is being sold primarily to third world nations or nations that have a embargo on them.

Re: Venezuela coaches K-8 and L-15?

Pointblank said:

A quarter of the cost for the T-6 Texan II is for the Martin Baker USMk16LA zero zero ejection seats, which is world class. And from how prevalent that specific seat is in Western fighter aircraft (and how many lives it has saved), its well worth the money. And in a training environment, the ability to bail out safely is a key consideration.

Furthermore, the T-6 Texan II has a more advanced avionics package; it comes with an all glass cockpit that includes a Head-Up Display (HUD), six Multi-function display (MFD) and Hands On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS).

Due to the numbers produced, the T-6 Texan II is also very similar in price; current price for the T-6B Texan II is $5 million dollars. Operational cost is also lower; turboprops are cheaper to operate, and can conduct more missions per day, which increases the training value compared to jet trainers.

As stated, the basic trainer market is cornered by turboprops; the PC-9, PC-7, T-6 Texan II, and the Embraer Tucano and Super Tucano collectively make up for over 2000 aircraft sold; 4 times the sales of the K-8. Furthermore, the type of sales is important; the sales are going toward nations that have money and have choice; The K-8 is being sold primarily to third world nations or nations that have a embargo on them.

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Errh, Eqytians got a embargo? The PC-9, PC-7, T-6 Texan II are sold to richer countries cuz they are produced by the same part of euro-american alliance, not because it's better in performance, doesn't matter how good the Chinese or Russian trainer is they will never buy it anyway, so this factor would hardly prove anything, the K-8 is being sold primarily to third world nations because that's where China's traditional customers are, as simple as that.

Martin Baker USMk16LA low speed on T-6 is quite nice IDD, but newer ejection seats are all quite capable nowdays, the K-8 can fly faster, longer, having higher Ceiling, longer endurance and carry alot more weight compared to the PC-9, PC-7, T-6 Texan II, the K-8E, K-8P also have a much advanced avionic suite including a glass cockpit, it has a advanced avionics package of integrated HUDs and MFDs. These aircraft are equipped with MFD integrated GPS and ILS/TACAN, all that while having a price far lower, the aircraft also has a short turn-around time and a low maintenance workload.

Those richer nations can also afford a bigger airforce, thus more number they buy, basicly, as I said, they are only buying what they are producing themself in their sphere of traditional military equipment source, take away that, and then count the export market, the K-8, although a newcomer, is doing far more better since it is out on the market.