Central/South American Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
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131216_chile_sonar_armada-chile.jpg

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The Chilean Navy operates three Type 23 Frigates (the UK operates 13 of them). Chile has slowly been upgrading their vessels to the 2087 Sonar System (the US kas upgraded 8 of their 13 Type 23s to this standrd), which is moang the most capable anti-submarine sonar ssystems in the world.
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I hate to admit it, but the Chilean armed forces are one of the most modern, well equipped and well trained in all Latin America. Example: the Type 23 destroyer, Leopard II tanks and F-16s……..
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Equation said:
True, but F-18E/F has more powerful engine and a lot more high tech and better avionics than the other two.
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The relations between the USA and Brazil are a little strained after the spy incident; additionally the USA was not willing to concede on the technology transfer issue. That just left the Gripen and Rafale. Given the Gripen’s lower acquisition cost and maintenance/life cycle cost. The selection was very clear.

Brazil’s defense ministry said that the Gripen was the least costly contender and also met the country’s requirement for sufficient technology transfer to ensure that Brazil’s ability to operate the aircraft would depend as little as possible on continued support from the supplier.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Dizasta1 said:
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Article said:
The Brazilian defense minister, Celso Amorim, told reporters at a news conference in Brasilia that Saab was selected over Boeing because it had agreed to share more technology with contractors and because many parts for the new jet, the Gripen NG, would be made in Brazil.

The decision “took into account performance, the effective transfer of technology and costs, not only of acquisition, but also of maintenance,” Mr. Amorim said in a statement. He was accompanied by Gen. Juniti Saito, the Brazilian air force’s chief of staff. “The decision was based on these three factors.”
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Cannot really fault Brazil in this.

They are going to get a very capable fighter, and it will cost them less.

In addition, they will be able to acquie new technologies that will help them in their own indegenous efforts, and a lot of the parts and peices will be "Built in Brazil." All very worthwhile things, economically, militarily, and politically.

And, with Saab, I would imagine that if Brazil wants to later deploy these types of aircraft on their Sao Paula, or more likely on their next carrier, then the move to the Sea Grippen will be one Saab is more than happy to help them make as it would improve Grippen's chances in that market once they have them operating off of another carrier. It would also allow for significant commonality between the Brazilian Air Force and Brazilian NAvy aircraft if they were to do so.

The only real potential for any major air conflict for Brazil in Souith America, IMHO, would be against the 24 Venesuelan SU-30 MK2 aircraft. I think these Grippens would fair well in air to air engengements if, God forbid, that ever occurred.

Thoughts?
 
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Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Jeff Head said:
Cannot really fault Brazil in this.

They are going to get a very capable fighter, and it will cost them less.

And, with Saab, I would imagine that if Brazil wants to later deploy these types of aircraft on their Sao Paula, or more likely on their next carrier, then the move to the Sea Grippen will be one Saab is more than happy to help them make as it would improve Grippen's chances in that market once they have them operating off of another carrier. It would also allow for significant commonality between the Brazilian Air Force and Brazilian NAvy aircraft if they were to do so.

The only real potential for any major air conflict for Brazil in Souith America, IMHO, would be against the 24 Venesuelan SU-30 MK2 aircraft. I think these Grippens would fair well in air to air engengements if, God forbid, that ever occurred.

Thoughts?
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Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with the Gripen, but it's just still a single engine aircraft with limited range.
 
A

alopes

Junior Member
Jeff Head said:
Cannot really fault Brazil in this.

They are going to get a very capable fighter, and it will cost them less.

In addition, they will be able to acquie new technologies that will help them in their own indegenous efforts, and a lot of the parts and peices will be "Built in Brazil." All very worthwhile things, economically, militarily, and politically.

And, with Saab, I would imagine that if Brazil wants to later deploy these types of aircraft on their Sao Paula, or more likely on their next carrier, then the move to the Sea Grippen will be one Saab is more than happy to help them make as it would improve Grippen's chances in that market once they have them operating off of another carrier. It would also allow for significant commonality between the Brazilian Air Force and Brazilian NAvy aircraft if they were to do so.

The only real potential for any major air conflict for Brazil in Souith America, IMHO, would be against the 24 Venesuelan SU-30 MK2 aircraft. I think these Grippens would fair well in air to air engengements if, God forbid, that ever occurred.

Thoughts?
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Exactly.

One of the most critical parts, for Brasil, is the cost of maintainance and training with the aircrafts.

Brasil is always cutting down on the defense budgets to the point that the Air Force was unable to keep the the minimal training hours for the F-5 pilots.

And the F-5 fighters have a very cheap flight hour cost, IRC, i think it is one third of the cost of the Grippen flight hour, and even then, the Air Force have to cut the flight hours for many years.

Even the Gripen relatively low flight hour costs will be a challenge for Brasilian Air Force budgets so that the Gripen was the only logistics option in reallity for Brasil.
Defense spending isn´t really a priority for the Brasilian politicians and the Social spending has the lion share over it.

But the Brasilian President were very attracted by the commercial and investment package offered by Boeing and the Boeing offer had already won, in the President´s decision, but just before she could disclose the decision in her New York, United Nations yearly assembly trip, the Snowden Crisis happened.

A leftist President, as we have, couldn´t accept to make a deal under those circunstances.
In this Case, the only reason for Boeing not winning this contract was the Snowden revelations, incredible as it might seem.
 
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thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
Looking back at whole Brazilian fighter competition , I cannot escape impression that Sukhoi offer was best for them - not for Su-35 but for Su-30MK . They would have gotten proven platform with long range , relatively low price and whole array of weapons with reasonable ToT . But politics obviously played its parts , as Russia is big no-no for liberal lefties these days . ;)

Well , they selected what they selected , Gripen is not a bad plane . It will be interesting to see how much of technology could be transferred to Brazil . Independent production is impossible as Gripen has American engine (and some weapons) , Italian radar (parts of it) and German cannon . Also , we will see what would happen to Sea Gripen project .

On the side note , Boeing would probably decide to close Super Hornet line next year , as they don't have any more orders :

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G

getready

Senior Member
Miragedriver said:
The relations between the USA and Brazil are a little strained after the spy incident; additionally the USA was not willing to concede on the technology transfer issue. That just left the Gripen and Rafale. Given the Gripen’s lower acquisition cost and maintenance/life cycle cost. The selection was very clear.

Brazil’s defense ministry said that the Gripen was the least costly contender and also met the country’s requirement for sufficient technology transfer to ensure that Brazil’s ability to operate the aircraft would depend as little as possible on continued support from the supplier.
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Of the main factors behind Brazil's decision such as overall aircraft capability, NSA spygate, tech transfer and cost, which one u think is the most important one that this brazil government consider? Or are that all about equal?
 
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getready

Senior Member
alopes said:
Exactly.

One of the most critical parts, for Brasil, is the cost of maintainance and training with the aircrafts.

Brasil is always cutting down on the defense budgets to the point that the Air Force was unable to keep the the minimal training hours for the F-5 pilots.

And the F-5 fighters have a very cheap flight hour cost, IRC, i think it is one third of the cost of the Grippen flight hour, and even then, the Air Force have to cut the flight hours for many years.

Even the Gripen relatively low flight hour costs will be a challenge for Brasilian Air Force budgets so that the Gripen was the only logistics option in reallity for Brasil.
Defense spending isn´t really a priority for the Brasilian politicians and the Social spending has the lion share over it.

But the Brasilian President were very attracted by the commercial and investment package offered by Boeing and the Boeing offer had already won, in the President´s decision, but just before she could disclose the decision in her New York, United Nations yearly assembly trip, the Snowden Crisis happened.

A leftist President, as we have, couldn´t accept to make a deal under those circunstances.
In this Case, the only reason for Boeing not winning this contract was the Snowden revelations, incredible as it might seem.
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Sorry for my ignorance but did the president actually say brazil is going for the hornet before the spying revelations and did military agree with the president's decision and the decision later to switch to gripen?
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
Cannot really fault Brazil in this.

They are going to get a very capable fighter, and it will cost them less.

In addition, they will be able to acquie new technologies that will help them in their own indegenous efforts, and a lot of the parts and peices will be "Built in Brazil." All very worthwhile things, economically, militarily, and politically.

And, with Saab, I would imagine that if Brazil wants to later deploy these types of aircraft on their Sao Paula, or more likely on their next carrier, then the move to the Sea Grippen will be one Saab is more than happy to help them make as it would improve Grippen's chances in that market once they have them operating off of another carrier. It would also allow for significant commonality between the Brazilian Air Force and Brazilian NAvy aircraft if they were to do so.

The only real potential for any major air conflict for Brazil in Souith America, IMHO, would be against the 24 Venesuelan SU-30 MK2 aircraft. I think these Grippens would fair well in air to air engengements if, God forbid, that ever occurred.

Thoughts?
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The Gripen is a capable aircraft, and I agree that it is a good match against the SU-30. Brazil will not just stop at the required 36 aircraft benchmark. Once they realize the economy of the aircraft and the “economies of scale” in production, they will replace the 54 F-5BR and eventually the AMX.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
getready said:
Of the main factors behind Brazil's decision such as overall aircraft capability, NSA spygate, tech transfer and cost, which one u think is the most important one that this brazil government consider? Or are that all about equal?
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The Su-30 while being a capable aircraft does require more maintenance than an F-18 or a JAS-39. The Russian did offer technology transfer, but in my opinion the Air Force was concerned of the integration of a completely different aircraft into service (i.e. western vs eastern), The USA was not willing to include technology transfer into their deal, and the whole spy thing didn’t help, together with a lefty president (not pro USA), that pretty much killed that deal
What’s left…the JAS-39? Capable small easy to maintains and service, long flight life (compared to the SU-30), and as Jeff mentioned with the possibility of a naval version for the carrier.
There are members of the Argentine Air Force that were waiting to see what Brazil selected. As you known Argentina and Brazil are cooperating more and it was hoped that the FAA could “piggyback” onto a Brazilian order. However with the JAS-39 integrating so many components from BAE, I don’t see any possibility of that.
 
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