Canada not joining the F-35 program was the product of lacking foresight and political infighting between Liberals and Conservatives, which reduces any long term planning. In the long run, Canada is firmly embedded with the American defence establishment, no other way around geography and Canada's lack of a comprehensive defence industry. Staying with the F-18 was a temporary solution, it needs to stay up to tempo with the alliance.
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- Thread starter rommel
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Well Justin is unfortunately a typical liberal, and ran on a promise to de-rail the F-35 deal,, not because its a bad airplane or a bad deal? (he'd have NO CLUE about that?), but because the conservative military bought, it because it will ultimately be the best 5th Generation fighter in the world, and liberals always have to prove themselves to be the smartest folks in the room, by disagreeing with conservatives, (no matter the point or view or issue at hand).
I have helped both the Liberal and Conservative party campaign for their (multiple) elections before. When the F-35 was a hot topic during the Harper years, the Liberals in their internal meetings thought it was a leverage against the Conservatives. Not because the F-35 was against the Liberal party's defence strategy for Canada (they didn't have an in depth defence strategy) but it was merely a political tool against the Conservatives due to the negative press from American media about the F-35 program's ballooning costs.
Personally I am agnostic about party names, I care about their strategy and ability to implement. So far the Liberals seems short sighted and focuses too much on political tactics. Conservatives provide a more comprehensive strategy for the country along with their plans being more actionable.
thank you very much for that corroboration brother, and the present US CONGRESS and SENATE, with Republican Majorities are the most pitiful bunch of "clucks" that have ever walked the planet,,, there are a few standouts- Congressman Gowdy and Devin Nunes to name two in the House, and Super Ted in the Senate! the back-bone of the conservative movement is "thin"..
The American people are still "embedded" here in this "Beautiful Land", but they have been overshadowed by those who have children and expect others to "raise them and pay for them"... I'm not specifically talking about any group of people, colors, nationalities, but a philosophy.. I live in a very white community, but I would say a 1/3 of them, maybe half, Old People included, expect the government to be their sugar-daddy....
so social liberals, in a desire to run the show! (and that's important), give us socialized medicine and childcare as a "hand-out" to a sub-culture, who are led about as sheep with-out a shepherd, so for example during the last regime?? we had the FBI and the Intel Community doing opposition research for the Dim Party?? against the Rep candidate, and positing the nonsensical "Steele Dossier" as fact...
now that, its "Collusion", but back to Canada and the US.. no doubt those of us who care, intend to defend our Nation, and our allies,, thankfully we now have leadership that is fully on board with that, and in fact represents the "will of the people"
back to Canada, I pray that there is a re-consideration, and that Justin is a big enough man to do the right thing, the F-35 brings so much to Canada economically and dare I say an attitude of cooperation with our neighbors... I can assure you that we love Canada and Canadians, as we love most all our allies...
sticking together means the difference in surviving as Free Men! so for Canada the F-35 is very important, and if they choose to assert an obtuse attitude, down the road it will bite us all in the butt! now if the US Government would get the message??
No problem brother. I feel you, I don't follow politics that much but am more attentive towards American politics than I am towards Canadian politics, mainly because it is more entertaining. You guys have some interesting characters while Canadian politicians are relatively boring, which could be a good thing.
I think the North American materialistic culture eventually pushes for bigger government welfare handouts. Half the population has less than $1,000 in savings, people just don't like to save anymore and in general feel entitled to a certain lifestyle. Without big government I don't think many people would survive another economic crisis, it's a sad reality. We might be near one now, markets tanked majorly over the last few days, looks like an inflection point. Economic indicators don't look good either, the market is propped up by the savings of baby boomers that invested into the market through investment funds.
Liberals in general represent idealism, they are a necessary counter-balance in society but suffer in the actualisation department. Canada and the US represent different cases in the socialised medicine argument. Much of the defence burden of the allied countries are carried by America, perhaps for legacy reasons. This enables resources for Canada to develop a comprehensive socialised medicine program. If I may criticise, the American medical system lacks real competition resulting in sky high prices and it's covered by insurance, how sustainable can that be for society.
Yah, it's pretty ridiculous the extent some will go for political leverage. I remember members in charge of the Liberal campaigns encouraging flooding popular news sites in Canada with pro-liberal comments. Most voters are not well informed until days before the election, this subtly pushes certain ideas into the reader's heads. We can hope but talking to your local representatives can help.
Eventually realities will force their hand regarding the F-35. I just don't want this to happen right before the 6th gen platforms hit the market. The aerospace industry is undergoing consolidation at least it is felt in Canada. The world market is only so big and the big growth that will happen in the Chinese market will likely be dominated by a mix of China's domestic brands, Boeing and Airbus in the next few decades according to the strategic moves they are making in China. This leaves only so much growth room for other existing OEMs. Bombardier already came out and said they are going to stop developing planes and will move into specialising in aerospace parts. This means becoming a subcontracter for Boeing and Airbus, it's the only way to maintain growth and survive in the market as the scale isn't there. Long term, Canadian aerospace is mainly tied to the US.
I often travel to America, it is a beautiful country with wonderful people. I had a chances to visit a few aerospace museums in the US and seeing those machines up close was definitely awe inspiring. The most striking thing was the era in which they were conceived, many during the 50s-60s. Makes me wonder if that progress had been continued vigorously through black projects and what had be achieved with current programs.
In many ways Canada and the US are very similar, except we tend to be more laid back in international affairs. Hopefully the current American administration will push for good policies and do what is necessary, however unpopular they may be. Things will eventually work out, have faith.
Exactly the US and Canada have a long and solid friendship, and thank you for adding some perspective to this conversation... let me say up front that if say Eurofighter were a 5th gen aircraft or Rafale,,, then Canada would have a more equitable choice...
the fact that they both remain 4+ aircraft, really makes the F-35A the most viable choice, unless they want to buy J-20, FC-31, or SU-57. I was an early critic of promoting the F-35 over the F-22, but that was done largely in respect to our partners on JSF, and now that the F-22 has been discontinued,, the F-35 pick up the role of top of the line A2A, and it does have the genetics and basic handling qualities to be successful in that role..
its Not a Raptor, but then again, nothing else is either, and I would love to see LockMart bring back the F-22B proposal as a 5+ generation aircraft. We have learned so much since the Raptor's inception, so much that would enable us to build a mechanically simpler and electronically muscular F-22B, but I'm not gonna hold my breath?
Jura The idiot
General
Brother
Air Force weighs cost to upgrade 34 F-22 trainers to combat configuration
September 14, 2017
the Pentagon doesn't have less than two bil to make any use of like three dozen Raptors, you're talking "F-22B"
Jura The idiot
General
Jura The idiot
General
Friday at 8:31 PM
Philippines terminates $234M helicopter contract with Canada
and here's what's happened:
Philippines terminates $234M helicopter contract with Canada
I wouldn't go far to say that voters were misinformed, but I would say that Conservatives in Canada made many blunders over the year to cost their lost. If they have followed the proper rules during procurement of the F-35, none of this would have happened. If they followed all the rules, F-35 would have been procured. For Liberals, during the election. I don't think they said that they would not procure the F-35, but instead halt the deals first and ensure a competition was held to find out if an alternative was there and analyze the cost and benefits. The F-35 deal was really only a small fraction of the issue that cost their lost.