battle for Changsa,1939

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
lightspeed said:
the Chinese Communist Party chose to reveal the Pan Hannian story themselves, nothing to do with the Kuomintang at all. i certainly think it puts the role of CCP in the war then in a very bad light.

this CCP Jiangxi Soviet, the Chinese Soviet Republic was 10 times worse than the so-called Chiang Kai Shek fascist government.

people wonder whether the KMT or the CCP had more support then. i mentioned earlier already. the majority of people don't understand nor care about Sun Yat Sen three principles of the people and Marxism–Leninism Communist ideology. most people supported neither parties. the KMT unified China in 1929 by force of arms and the CCP unified China in 1949 by force of arms too. both parties claimed to have the people's support in unifying the country to claim the Mandate of Heaven title to justify their control of China. the people had no choice. both KMT and CCP forced themselves on the people of China.
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Okay, this is getting stupid. Stop trying to derail this thread with your revisionist propaganda. Let's stick to the MILITARY history!
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
Another BS revisionist history. I wonder if you know the meaning of mandate of heaven at all. By definition if the CCP lost the mandate of heaven they are not in power by now even after the disastrous Great leap forward and cultural revolution. The Kuomintang lost the civil war period because they mismanaged the country so bad that people fed up with them and give an opening to CCP . No amount of revisionist history is going to change that fact live with it. No amount of arm will be successful against arm uprising if it just and supported by the people. REad the PEW report that show 90% of people support the direction of where the country is going
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you have no knowledge and understanding on the doings of Pan Hannian, Chi Chao Ting and Chen Hansheng who greatly sabotaged the Kuomintang Nationalist government's position militarily, financially and internationally. the results of their actions greatly aided the Communists' rise to power. the Chinese Communist Party won China in 1949 by force of arms and deception to the people.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
solarz said:
Okay, this is getting stupid. Stop trying to derail this thread with your revisionist propaganda. Let's stick to the MILITARY history!
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i said already. the Pan Hannian story was revealed by the CCP. you refuse to accept the truth.

i did write posts related to the Changsha thread earlier. it was you who derail the thread starting from posts #34, #36 and #48.....
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
lightspeed said:
i said already. the Pan Hannian story was revealed by the CCP. you refuse to accept the truth.

i did write posts related to the Changsha thread earlier. it was you who derail the thread starting from posts #34, #36 and #48.....
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Anybody who disregards the importance of intelligence operations for the attainment of political goals is an absolute idiot, after all from time immemorial such usage has always been a hallmark of effective statecraft and even warfare against enemies internal and external, if your favored side was incompetent at it well then that just shows your ideological bias more than anything else.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
montyp165 said:
Anybody who disregards the importance of intelligence operations for the attainment of political goals is an absolute idiot, after all from time immemorial such usage has always been a hallmark of effective statecraft and even warfare against enemies internal and external, if your favored side was incompetent at it well then that just shows your ideological bias more than anything else.
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intelligence gathering and espionage to obtain information from the target side are of course normal. the crux is the actions of Pan Hannian then significantly harmed the Chinese nation and people's war cause.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
lightspeed said:
intelligence gathering and espionage to obtain information from the target side are of course normal. the crux is the actions of Pan Hannian then significantly harmed the Chinese nation and people's war cause.
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Intelligence work is not only gathering information but also involves sabotage and subversion, after all Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond came from his work in SOE, which was well known for 'raising hell' in more ways than one across wartime Europe, as well as Soviet SMERSH operations. This also means CCP and KMT (or Spanish Nationalist/Republicans for that matter) doing the same to each other was well within the normal realm of action towards gaining advantage.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
montyp165 said:
Intelligence work is not only gathering information but also involves sabotage and subversion, after all Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond came from his work in SOE, which was well known for 'raising hell' in more ways than one across wartime Europe, as well as Soviet SMERSH operations. This also means CCP and KMT (or Spanish Nationalist/Republicans for that matter) doing the same to each other was well within the normal realm of action towards gaining advantage.
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i have said in earlier posts that the Kuomintang and Communists had their intelligence operations ( espionage, sabotage and subversion ) against each other. i don't think i have suggested that the CCP intelligence works were not within the normal realm of action towards gaining advantage. maybe you didn't read or misread my earlier posts.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
lightspeed said:
intelligence gathering and espionage to obtain information from the target side are of course normal. the crux is the actions of Pan Hannian then significantly harmed the Chinese nation and people's war cause.
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Go read the forum rules. We were talking about MILITARY history. What does your "Pan Hanian" and CCP claims have to do with MILITARY history? If you can't tell the difference between military and politics, you need to find yourself another forum.

i have said in earlier posts that the Kuomintang and Communists had their intelligence operations ( espionage, sabotage and subversion ) against each other. i don't think i have suggested that the CCP intelligence works were not within the normal realm of action towards gaining advantage. maybe you didn't read or misread my earlier posts.
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I suppose in your world, letting the entire Northern China fall to foreign invaders while diverting military efforts into crushing an political opponent is in the "normal realm of actions toward gaining advantage"?
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
solarz said:
Go read the forum rules. We were talking about MILITARY history. What does your "Pan Hanian" and CCP claims have to do with MILITARY history? If you can't tell the difference between military and politics, you need to find yourself another forum.

I suppose in your world, letting the entire Northern China fall to foreign invaders while diverting military efforts into crushing an political opponent is in the "normal realm of actions toward gaining advantage"?
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you should read your own posts first before criticizing me. this thread is about the battle of Changsha 1939 and you had written nothing related to the thread.

Chiang and Kuomintang had to concede to the Japanese's demands then to buy time to prepare for the eventual long war against the Japanese. the Soviets like the Japanese wanted to advance imperialist interests in China. the Chinese Communist Party owed its allegiance to Stalin and the Soviet Union so the CCP deserved to be crushed by the KMT then. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
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