battle for Changsa,1939

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pissybits

Junior Member
hardware said:
other factor was the soviet aid, according to the archieves,Liu Shio Chi (who later died in purge during the cultural revolution) admit the soviet aid play important factor in Communist victory,for example more than 300 plus capture japanese tank .two factory producing helmet not to mention million of ton of ex-japanese small arm and artillery pieces capture by the soviet armies were illegally hand over the CCP.before that more than half of Mao's red armies were armed with nothing more than some sword and spear, since arms were hard to come by.
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that's nothing compared to the amount of aid truman gave the kmt. in the end, the communists won because they had the support of the people and they had loyal troops, plain and simple. in the words of mencius: 得人心者得天下。

every member of my family who lived through that time, (even the ones that bear a bitter grudge against the ccp) can confirm that mao had the people's support. think about it, mao's support base was the peasants and the sharecroppers (80-90% if the population) and also the liberal intellectuals, while chiang's support base was the rich merchants and the elite families.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
pissybits said:
that's nothing compared to the amount of aid truman gave the kmt. in the end, the communists won because they had the support of the people and they had loyal troops, plain and simple. in the words of mencius: 得人心者得天下。

every member of my family who lived through that time, (even the ones that bear a bitter grudge against the ccp) can confirm that mao had the people's support. think about it, mao's support base was the peasants and the sharecroppers (80-90% if the population) and also the liberal intellectuals, while chiang's support base was the rich merchants and the elite families.
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That last point is why I feel the CCP leadership for China was in the long term very necessary, because one only needs to look at the Marcos era in the Philippines to see how things would have turned out if the KMT as it existed then still held control (particularly with the Soong family et al effectively controlling national finances).
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
pissybits said:
that's nothing compared to the amount of aid truman gave the kmt. in the end, the communists won because they had the support of the people and they had loyal troops, plain and simple. in the words of mencius: 得人心者得天下。

every member of my family who lived through that time, (even the ones that bear a bitter grudge against the ccp) can confirm that mao had the people's support. think about it, mao's support base was the peasants and the sharecroppers (80-90% if the population) and also the liberal intellectuals, while chiang's support base was the rich merchants and the elite families.
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the huge USD $2 billion aid that Truman gave the Kuomintang is misleading. the effective aid is much less than that according to the figures of US Senator Pat McCarran in 1949. you have totally underestimated the huge invaluable aid and moral support that the Soviets gave the Chinese Communists.

it is true that Mao Zedong had some support. but why did the KMT lose the support of the people, even the liberal intellectuals who should be anti-Communism by right ? i gave a possible answer in the last part of post #16.
 
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pissybits

Junior Member
lightspeed said:
the huge USD $2 billion aid that Truman gave the Kuomintang is misleading. the effective aid is much less than that according to the figures of US Senator Pat McCarran in 1949. you have totally underestimated the huge invaluable aid and moral support that the Soviets gave the Chinese Communists.

it is true that Mao Zedong had some support. but why did the KMT lose the support of the people, even the liberal intellectuals who should be anti-Communism by right ? i gave a possible answer in the last part of post #16.
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i never denied that the soviets did not support the ccp; but regardless of that fact, the kmt was fighting with american guns, american planes, and american trucks.

obviously the people were sick of war, but why would they support a corrupt and ineffectual regime that monopolized all the wealth in china under 4 families (蒋宋孔陈) while the rest of the people starved? i don't understand what you are arguing, that mao didn't have the support of most chinese people? how else could he win? why did local peasants give him information during the war? why did he not have to resort to kidnapping civilians into his army like chiang?

my grandfather grew up in a part of hunan controlled by the communists before 1949. his family did not have cash to send him to the regular school, but the communists provided free schooling to the children in the areas they controlled and that's the school he went to. the communists won people's hearts with gifts and promises of a society where everyone had land and everyone was equal. this is at a time when 90% of people were starving peasants who had to pay rent to the rich landlords that were the support base for chiang kai shek.

please do not conflate "liberal" with american or western. liberal mean you're on the left, you want to change the establishment. chiang kai shek was the conservative establishment and many people saw him as a lackey to the western imperialists. people who wanted communism, equality, self-governance, and democracy were all liberals at the time. people like lu xun, chen dexiu, and liang qichao were liberal reformers, and they inspired the likes of deng xiaoping, mao zedong, and liu shaoqi. ever heard of the may fourth movement? those were the liberal intellectuals in china at the time, and the may fourth movement is one of the catalysts that gave birth to the ccp.
 
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pissybits

Junior Member
montyp165 said:
That last point is why I feel the CCP leadership for China was in the long term very necessary, because one only needs to look at the Marcos era in the Philippines to see how things would have turned out if the KMT as it existed then still held control (particularly with the Soong family et al effectively controlling national finances).
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not necessarily, it is impossible to judge historical outcomes in this way. china is not the philippines and even if china had remained under the kmt, the effects of their corruption may not have had as big of a devastating impact on chinese people and culture as mao's rampant iconoclasm, shoddy economic theory, and irresponsible political movements.

think about why japan, taiwan, and south korea were able to develop their economies so successfully and eventually become effective democratic societies. the u.s. gave them favourable trade terms to help them get rich, and once they got rich the people became politically conscious and demanded rights: the birth of civil society. (yes, i know japan was an american installed democracy after ww2, but taiwan and south korea had to achieve it themselves)

why did america give favourable trade terms to japan, south korea, and taiwan but not the philippines? because japan, south korea, and taiwan were crucial pieces in their containment of communism. (domino theory) by treating them with equitable trade terms, you allow them to become rich and strong and thus impervious to communism. the philippines was less strategically important, so the west treated it like any other third world country: with exploitative trade policies and barriers to imports while exporting (dumping) cheap american goods on them to make cash.

i know this seems to support the idea of "democracy for the rich, dictatorships for the poor," but there is truth to that observation. -and it is simply an observation, not a prescription. this is just how socioeconomic structures seemed to have developed over the years.

ps- i know i've been instigating this political discussion as much as anyone else, but let's try to go back to talking about the battle of changsha before this thread gets deleted!
 
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hardware

Banned Idiot
the KMT resistant against the japanese will consider impressive,consider the shortage of everything,particular heavy weapon.yet there defeat in coming civil war was puzzle,after 9 years of continous two front war,KMT probably probably suffer from war weary.while the CPP have 9 year of rest and expansion.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
pissybits said:
i never denied that the soviets did not support the ccp; but regardless of that fact, the kmt was fighting with american guns, american planes, and american trucks.

obviously the people were sick of war, but why would they support a corrupt and ineffectual regime that monopolized all the wealth in china under 4 families (蒋宋孔陈) while the rest of the people starved? i don't understand what you are arguing, that mao didn't have the support of most chinese people? how else could he win? why did local peasants give him information during the war? why did he not have to resort to kidnapping civilians into his army like chiang?

my grandfather grew up in a part of hunan controlled by the communists before 1949. his family did not have cash to send him to the regular school, but the communists provided free schooling to the children in the areas they controlled and that's the school he went to. the communists won people's hearts with gifts and promises of a society where everyone had land and everyone was equal. this is at a time when 90% of people were starving peasants who had to pay rent to the rich landlords that were the support base for chiang kai shek.

please do not conflate "liberal" with american or western. liberal mean you're on the left, you want to change the establishment. chiang kai shek was the conservative establishment and many people saw him as a lackey to the western imperialists. people who wanted communism, equality, self-governance, and democracy were all liberals at the time. people like lu xun, chen dexiu, and liang qichao were liberal reformers, and they inspired the likes of deng xiaoping, mao zedong, and liu shaoqi. ever heard of the may fourth movement? those were the liberal intellectuals in china at the time, and the may fourth movement is one of the catalysts that gave birth to the ccp.
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the Kuomintang armies were fighting with little United States military aid. the US imposed an arms embargo on the Republic of China for ten months since late 1946 to mid 1947 and the KMT did not receive any substantial military supplies from the US till Jan 1949. in that period, the Soviet gradually increased its military aid to the CCP. a few PLA Generals said in their memoirs that during the year 1948, they had more artillery pieces and shells ( Soviet produced ) than the KMT armies. the KMT depleted its military supplies. the CCP had more and more military equipments. the tide of war situation changed in favor of the Communists.

the CCP won the country by force of arms. the CCP propaganda was excessively skillful and the KMT propaganda was excessively stupid. the CCP occupied areas had massive conscription.

people like to talk about KMT's corruption but ignore the fact that Communist agents like Henry Dexter White, Chi Chao Ting and cohorts did irrevocable damage to the ROC's monetary system. inflation naturally leads to corruption. the Communists were responsible for the financial crisis suffered by the KMT which naturally lead to the people losing confidence in the KMT government and switching support to the CCP.

the CCP was formed in the Soviet Union.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
lightspeed said:
the Kuomintang armies were fighting with little United States military aid. the US imposed an arms embargo on the Republic of China for ten months since late 1946 to mid 1947 and the KMT did not receive any substantial military supplies from the US till Jan 1949. in that period, the Soviet gradually increased its military aid to the CCP. a few PLA Generals said in their memoirs that during the year 1948, they had more artillery pieces and shells ( Soviet produced ) than the KMT armies. the KMT depleted its military supplies. the CCP had more and more military equipments. the tide of war situation changed in favor of the Communists.

the CCP won the country by force of arms. the CCP propaganda was excessively skillful and the KMT propaganda was excessively stupid. the CCP occupied areas had massive conscription.

people like to talk about KMT's corruption but ignore the fact that Communist agents like Henry Dexter White, Chi Chao Ting and cohorts did irrevocable damage to the ROC's monetary system. inflation naturally leads to corruption. the Communists were responsible for the financial crisis suffered by the KMT which naturally lead to the people losing confidence in the KMT government and switching support to the CCP.

the CCP was formed in the Soviet Union.
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This is why I take these anti-CCP assertions with a ton of salt, particularly since by that logic the Bolsheviks should have been completely wiped out by the White Armies in Russia too, but again this completely fails to take into consideration the very real organizational and grass roots foundational strength that enabled the Bolsheviks and CCP to win in their respective conflicts. Claiming that the CCP was some sort of foreign-instigated anti-Chinese group just shows how ideologically driven such commentators are.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
lightspeed said:
the Kuomintang armies were fighting with little United States military aid. the US imposed an arms embargo on the Republic of China for ten months since late 1946 to mid 1947 and the KMT did not receive any substantial military supplies from the US till Jan 1949. in that period, the Soviet gradually increased its military aid to the CCP. a few PLA Generals said in their memoirs that during the year 1948, they had more artillery pieces and shells ( Soviet produced ) than the KMT armies. the KMT depleted its military supplies. the CCP had more and more military equipments. the tide of war situation changed in favor of the Communists.

the CCP won the country by force of arms. the CCP propaganda was excessively skillful and the KMT propaganda was excessively stupid. the CCP occupied areas had massive conscription.

people like to talk about KMT's corruption but ignore the fact that Communist agents like Henry Dexter White, Chi Chao Ting and cohorts did irrevocable damage to the ROC's monetary system. inflation naturally leads to corruption. the Communists were responsible for the financial crisis suffered by the KMT which naturally lead to the people losing confidence in the KMT government and switching support to the CCP.
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So you're saying that the KMT didn't do much to stamp out these CCP propaganda if they knew about it? It's called incompetent and no initiative on their part. The KMT had most of the major urban areas of China along with the newspapers and other media outlets as well and yet they still couldn't figure out how to deal with this intelligence information gathering and network of spies by the CCP?

lightspeed said:
the CCP was formed in the Soviet Union.
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And Democracy was formed in ancient Greece, what's your point?
 
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