Badgering people for classified information

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solarz

Brigadier
Below is the legal explanation I received from Tempest, who gave permission to share it with those who are seeking clarity on the issue (I added the bold-underline):

"One of the more touchy-feely bits you get admonished about when you scribble on your SF-86 and go through the process to get a clearance, is that there can be no participation in groups, communities, social circles, clubs, etc. that solicit classified information (even if it’s frowned upon in that community, or a one-time affair, or done by outlier members of that community). This policy is particularly “zero-tolerance” when it comes to individuals possessing a TS (which he does), and even moreso when it comes to highly important platforms and systems (which the F-22 happens to be).

As such, to rephrase his words on the matter, he didn’t really have a choice but to abandon ship when members of the PRC-leaning, PLA-focused forum which he had already been “playing classification chicken” with (to use his words) by writing extensively on the more technical aspects of military operations and weapons systems (to the extent that some of his works are the most complete, comprehensive, and competent analyses available on the internet vis a vis their subject matter) began repeatedly requesting that he disclose and disseminate classified mission systems, data processing/fusion, signature management and emissivity profile, and integrated networking technical specifications despite making it clear it would be unlawful to do so.

Well, that is, unless his goal was to, at best, lose his clearance and career by violating those aforementioned OPSEC constraints regarding even being around individuals or groups doing so; or at worst, his freedom, by committing Felony Espionage in violation of 18 U.S. Code § 793 (Gathering, Transmitting, or Losing Defense Information).




^ In light of this, I totally understand him leaving the forum. No amount of 'warnings/bannings' on an internet forum would fix this problem, so it's pointless. This is an actual legal issue and internet 'bans' are meaningless in court. As soon as the first person asked him to divulge classified data, he was legally obligated to "abandon ship" immediately, which is what he did. Not because he wanted to, but because he had to legally.

Sigh... I guess the moral of the story is that IC and OSINT don't mix. It's a loss for us, because he was a very valuable asset. In his short stay on this forum, many of us learned a lot from his posts and he clarified a lot of things that a bunch of us were going in circles about for a long time.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately as you mentioned, there is no realistic way an internet forum full of military enthusiasts is going to refrain from asking for classified information from someone who claims to have such clearance.

What I'm wondering about is how he manages to stay in reddit?
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
At this stage there are no plans for any changes in rules given how difficult it would be to really implement such a rule.

It also is not against the rules for poor etiquette and being unable to read context alone to be punishable, which is why to this point no penalties will be dealt out.

Glad to hear this.

But this forum does require the good will of people who are posting to engage constructively so everyone can get the most out of the forum, and that means being able to make personal judgements and to choose which arguments are worthwhile and not worthwhile and how far they want to take their own sense of nationalistic pride.

Hmm, I would not drag "nationalistic pride" into the mix. To me that would only add fuel to the fire.

I'd suggest to keep it simple and objective. First, many people do not submit to authority when they hear "trust me bro". They do not trust authority that has not established credibility yet. Second, (I think) not everyone was aware of the potential risk to patchwork before and during the debate.

The first problem is what it is in the age of misinformation and we have to live with it. We just need to handle the second issue for a different patchwork in the future and move on.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Some people just have to win every argument.
Pretty much.

As a rule, I generally don't tend to chain reply more than 2-3 times if it isn't going anywhere. It means either I've failed to convey my point and or the other person is stubborn or unwilling to listen.

I'm not going to go through all pages of that thread, but I don't see where he was being asked to divulge classified information. To me it seems the other poster didn't understand the point he was making and called him out on it, and he retreated into his shell.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say while I thought some of his posts were good, many were very superfluous, He tended to write paragraphs to make a point that could be articulated in a few sentences.

That's the main reason why I thought he was who he said he was, not because of any of the technical things he talked about. Government agencies love people who can create pages of text without really saying much.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I'm not going to go through all pages of that thread, but I don't see where he was being asked to divulge classified information. To me it seems the other poster didn't understand the point he was making and called him out on it, and he retreated into his shell.
He said J-20’s abilities only match the earlier batch of F-35 level and some forumers wanted proof.
 

BMUFL

Junior Member
Registered Member
  • 7-day old account
  • IP address routed via "VPN services"
Is this Patchwork 2.0? You are more than welcome to return and contribute, just exercise some common sense and don't get baited.
Who? Me? Lol no. Hell, to be honest, I signed up partly because I wanted to read his effortposts here; one of which was locked behind external link. Well, so much for that...

knows a ton about Patchwork history
I knew (if you can even call it that) about his history because I lurk a lot on reddit, where I discovered his effortposts (and this forum) first.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
If he's basing that assessment off classified information, surely he's already in trouble?

All this data analysis and comparison is bullsh!t anyway. The real world is what matters, not some numbers on a spreadsheet.
It’s open source info. When the US Air force set up an aggressor squadron to emulate the J-20, the spokesman said they have to use early block F-35s that are not combat capable, and they have to downgrade some features of the planes.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I respect your opinion and your length of service on this forum, but don't you think your comments here are a tad biased and denigrate the older users on this forum? Maybe other users don't have expertise in your field of interest, but your value judgement on every SDF member's contributions seems a bit strong.
I mean that's how it is. This is not an utopia where everyone is bringing equal value to the table.

It may be biased but some users absolutely know more stuff than others. So why should all users be "valued" the same? Why would a pro be compared to an amateur? How does that work in real life?
Is a medical student valued the same as a doctor?

So yes, some users are absolutely more useful and thus "valued" to the forum. There are plenty of Junior Members here who know their stuff inside out. Just tour a military thread and you will easily spot them


Of course this doesn't mean that they are above forum rules (as we haven't seen anyone banned in this debacle) and this is due to the mod team's professionalism. I have been in plenty of other forums where if this happened to them they would simply throw the ban hammer for even daring to "question" their mate or a high value member.
 
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