Badgering people for classified information

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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
I do not recall having seen warnings strong enough to remind people the potential risk to patchwork.
He quit to keep a margin of safety and we don't know his threshold. We think it is unnecessary, but don't blame anyone.

Below is the legal explanation I received from Tempest, who gave permission to share it with those who are seeking clarity on the issue (I added the bold-underline):

"One of the more touchy-feely bits you get admonished about when you scribble on your SF-86 and go through the process to get a clearance, is that there can be no participation in groups, communities, social circles, clubs, etc. that solicit classified information (even if it’s frowned upon in that community, or a one-time affair, or done by outlier members of that community). This policy is particularly “zero-tolerance” when it comes to individuals possessing a TS (which he does), and even moreso when it comes to highly important platforms and systems (which the F-22 happens to be).

As such, to rephrase his words on the matter, he didn’t really have a choice but to abandon ship when members of the PRC-leaning, PLA-focused forum which he had already been “playing classification chicken” with (to use his words) by writing extensively on the more technical aspects of military operations and weapons systems (to the extent that some of his works are the most complete, comprehensive, and competent analyses available on the internet vis a vis their subject matter) began repeatedly requesting that he disclose and disseminate classified mission systems, data processing/fusion, signature management and emissivity profile, and integrated networking technical specifications despite making it clear it would be unlawful to do so.

Well, that is, unless his goal was to, at best, lose his clearance and career by violating those aforementioned OPSEC constraints regarding even being around individuals or groups doing so; or at worst, his freedom, by committing Felony Espionage in violation of 18 U.S. Code § 793 (Gathering, Transmitting, or Losing Defense Information).




^ In light of this, I totally understand him leaving the forum. No amount of 'warnings/bannings' on an internet forum would fix this problem, so it's pointless. This is an actual legal issue and internet 'bans' are meaningless in court. As soon as the first person asked him to divulge classified data, he was legally obligated to "abandon ship" immediately, which is what he did. Not because he wanted to, but because he had to legally.

Sigh... I guess the moral of the story is that IC and OSINT don't mix. It's a loss for us, because he was a very valuable asset. In his short stay on this forum, many of us learned a lot from his posts and he clarified a lot of things that a bunch of us were going in circles about for a long time.
 

Staedler

Junior Member
Registered Member
I feel like certain users on this forum are clearly biased towards Patchwork. A normal user on this forum viewing this thread would observe that a new member on this forum is spouting some details on F-22 and claiming they have information that others don't have. Some older users on this forum asked for evidence or don't appeal to authority. Somehow this situation lead to some people claiming the new user was harassed and baited into revealing classified info?

Clearly, the new user shouldn't have appealed to authority in the first place, I don't see other SDF members claiming on the internet they might have ties to IC even though many regularly post detailed information on PLA systems. Claiming that one has classified info adds nothing of value to the discussion, it is a weak argument. Besides, why should SDF members trust information from US IC community in the first place? The job of those people is to literally collect info on their adversaries and deceive their adversaries. Patchwork is knowledgable about certain topics, but even assuming he does possess info on the F-22 that we don't have (regardless of its veracity), why would he share that info truthfully with us when his job explicitly requires him to do the exact opposite?
I didn't agree with Patchwork opinion here but at the end of the day, the point of discussion is to learn something. You can disagree with Patchwork's appeal to authority without dragging it into a 10-page affair of non-stop badgering. That wasn't even close to a productive discussion and was quite distasteful to boot.

Even if it had been a Jai Hind poster speaking nonsense yet again, a 10-page back-and-forth would have been unacceptable. People have been told to knock it off and take things to PMs for less. by78 has taken some of those sorts of posters to task before but if he decided to spend several pages of back-and-forth like what happened with Patchwork & co. that would have been egregious too.

In this case, these whole thing unfolded quite quickly. Can't expect mods and other folks to be on this forum constantly so the least we can do is to self-police better and to engage others in good faith and with better etiquette than the mess that was displayed.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I respect your opinion and your length of service on this forum, but don't you think your comments here are a tad biased and denigrate the older users on this forum? Maybe other users don't have expertise in your field of interest, but your value judgement on every SDF member's contributions seems a bit strong.

I don't think I'm denigrating anyone, so much as just accurately reviewing the contribution that patchwork provided in his short time here.

For what its worth, I think in his short time here he provided more exclusive useful knowledge to this forum than I have in my entire 14ish year time here as well.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
@Mohsin77

He could have cautioned to the mod that he would have to leave if this continued.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
There is no such thing as badgering on an internet forum. Is the user forcing him to read his posts? It's literally some words on a screen, ignore the post and move on. I think it was more of an ego thing with both of them wanting the last word.

I see no reason why anyone would need to access classified information to come to the conclusion he came to.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
@Mohsin77

He could have cautioned to the mod that he would have to leave if this continued.

It wouldn't have mattered. IC and OSINT don't mix. No amount of warnings on internet forums is gonna change that unfortunately. There are serious legal consequences and laws in place to limit interactions. That's the price you pay for your clearance.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I feel like certain users on this forum are clearly biased towards Patchwork. A normal user on this forum viewing this thread would observe that a new member on this forum is spouting some details on F-22 and claiming they have information that others don't have. Some older users on this forum asked for evidence or don't appeal to authority. Somehow this situation lead to some people claiming the new user was harassed and baited into revealing classified info?

Clearly, the new user shouldn't have appealed to authority in the first place, I don't see other SDF members claiming on the internet they might have ties to IC even though many regularly post detailed information on PLA systems. Claiming that one has classified info adds nothing of value to the discussion, it is a weak argument. Besides, why should SDF members trust information from US IC community in the first place? The job of those people is to literally collect info on their adversaries and deceive their adversaries. Patchwork is knowledgable about certain topics, but even assuming he does possess info on the F-22 that we don't have (regardless of its veracity), why would he share that info truthfully with us when his job explicitly requires him to do the exact opposite?
The point of these forums is to share views, not to force agreement.
 

Jj888

New Member
Registered Member
@Mohsin77

He could have cautioned to the mod that he would have to leave if this continued.
A professional with security clearance comes to J20 thread claiming he knows …& trust him.

My opinion, his poor judgment.

During Pelosi visit, even the F35 is claiming ejection problems to avoid the opportunity of meeting J20. They previously had encounters so they are better informed than us.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
There is no such thing as badgering on an internet forum. Is the user forcing him to read his posts? It's literally some words on a screen, ignore the post and move on. I think it was more of an ego thing with both of them wanting the last word.

I see no reason why anyone would need to access classified information to come to the conclusion he came to.

If you claim that your car is faster than mine, I would want to know its mph even if it is classified.
 
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