AUKUS News, Views, Analysis.

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
There seems to be one gigantic flaw with this position. I think it's fine and even responsible for powers to be concerned about what a growing superpower might do as it gains more ability to exert its strength. However, it's a terrible idea to navigate this superpower by provoking it. So far, Australia has been lucky that China is almost infinitely patient and hasn't gotten too upset so far, but what the hell would Australia do if China decided to bear a grudge?
They provoke because in their hearts they are not yet ready to accept an inferior position. As long as the US stands and retains it's global standing, all Anglos believe that they share the same status by association. Thus, countries like Australia see themselves as at least China's equals, because the US currently is.
When the US loses it's position, there will be a short duration of teeth gnashing, before acceptance sets in. At that time, for Australia at least, there will be a reconciliation of all the lessons put upon them in the last 15 years, and they will face reality and admit "we were wrong".
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
They provoke because in their hearts they are not yet ready to accept an inferior position. As long as the US stands and retains it's global standing, all Anglos believe that they share the same status by association. Thus, countries like Australia see themselves as at least China's equals, because the US currently is.
When the US loses it's position, there will be a short duration of teeth gnashing, before acceptance sets in. At that time, for Australia at least, there will be a reconciliation of all the lessons put upon them in the last 15 years, and they will face reality and admit "we were wrong".
The dumbest part about all of this is that China doesn't even want Australia to be in an inferior position to begin with. China is perfectly happy buying Australian goods and resources. So the whole "China is a threat" thing is made up by Australian politicians to score domestic points. And even with all this, China still doesn't care, and won't care as long as Australia is happy making money.

But that all changes if there's a conflict in the Western Pacific. What the Australians are unwilling to think about is that if they become belligerent, they lose regardless of the outcome of such a conflict. Obviously if they lose, then China is going to be able dictate terms. But even if they win, then their biggest customer has just suffered a big loss and will be unable to buy as much Australian goods!
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I think it's worth acknowledging that the consensus position actually aligns with the vast majority of its critics on a number of basic points.

1. Concern about how China may exercise its preponderant power in decades to come, including in ways that undermine or directly threaten our interests.

I was just able to catch the second half of a debate held by the Lowy Institute on "How to Defend Australia," and on reflection after seeing it, I think the word "interests" is something that Australia needs to properly define for itself.
At present, Australian "interests" is too nebulous, and feels to me like "preserve as much of the immediate post cold war balance of power that Australia enjoyed as possible" -- rather than identifying key areas of interfacing/disagreements with the PRC that Australia views as within its actual core interests that they absolutely cannot compromise on, versus others which it may view as "nice to have".

Things like "securing Australian trade routes" or wanting to "deter Chinese aggression in the region" are ultimately vague and may have many diplomatic offramps before having to commit to a military structure in pursuit of a strategic confrontation. Unsaid other things (but their silence speaks volumes) include Australia's actual position on what they would do in various permutations of a Taiwan conflict, as well as what is Australia's actual position wrt the CPC which rules the PRC and the CPC's legitimacy both as a government but also more importantly as a political system.


2a. Acknowledging that the United States is the only entity that is capable of effectively balancing against the potential exercise of that power in the Asia-Pacific region.
2b. Concluding, therefore, that Australia should seek to maintain good relations with the United States, and that we should welcome USA's continued engagement in the region.
3. Looking beyond the United States, that Australia's interests are served by (1) maintaining a capable defence force, (2) engaging with other regional nations such as Japan and Indonesia, (3) supporting international institutions that, at least in theory, constrain the behaviour of states according to principles that have been mutually agreed upon.

Different folks will place different weights on these things. But in considering where the real divergences come from, there are meaningful differences in how one assesses the threat potential of China. In part that depends on how just broadly or narrowly one conceives of Australia's national interests, but there are also clear ideological dimensions to those differences in threat perception. But I actually think the greater divergence is not in relation to perceptions of China, but in relation to perceptions of the United States and the role that it plays in the dynamic system.

If you believe that Australian interests always align with those of the United States, that the actions of the United States are always determined by rational and virtuous men on the basis of sober and sagacious advice derived from an accurate and complete apprehension of reality, that the United States is an essentially quiescent "status quo" power that seeks nothing more than to continue to preside benevolently over an inherently stable world order, then you will inevitably conclude that the risk of major conflict in the Asia-Pacific emerges solely in proportion to the appetite for such from the PRC and, therefore the closer association we have with the United States, the better. If you do not believe these things, then you may come to very different conclusions about the sources of potential conflict in the international system and where our interests lie in relation. I notice that talk of the United States as a "status quo" power has disappeared from the conversation in recent times. I can't imagine why.

Hugh White writes about our "post-American future" because he believes that the United States will ultimately yield a sphere of influence to China in the Asia-Pacific. White asserts that America's fundamental security interests are not threatened by the rise of China as they were by the Soviet Union during the Cold War, in large part because there is little prospect of China dominating Eurasia as the Soviet Union otherwise threatened to do post-1945. White proceeds to question the balance of power between the United States and China, the material foundations of American power and its commitment, or lack thereof, to preserving that balance of power. Much of the essay, however, is devoted to exploring the balance of resolve, using the war in Ukraine as an extended analogy. He concludes that the balance of resolve in most plausible conflict scenarios favours China, in large part due to the risk of nuclear escalation, as in Ukraine. So: interests, power, resolve, nukes. The meat and potatoes of realist thought.

One of the standard critiques of realist thought is that it fails to reckon with the internal dynamics of nations. In my view, it is precisely when accounting for the internal dynamics of the United States that the risk of major, potentially catastrophic conflict emerges most clearly. Donald Trump is clearly a unique individual but, also as clearly, he is not a "black swan" event in American politics, but a particular expression of various underlying dynamics, trends, interests and tensions within the American political system, at least some of which will outlast him. I have often written here about American mythology, by which I mean the set of American ideas, narratives, perceptions, values and commitments that have endured and evolved from the pre-history of the United States to the present day, arguably reaching their most rigid apotheosis in the triumphalism and unbounded ambition that followed the end of the Cold War. Of course many of these ideas ultimately emerge from the broader western intellectual milieu, and are reflected to a lesser degree in my own nation. I use the word "mythology" quite consciously, in the secular sense of "religion by another name", because I think that the manner in which many of these ideas are held (extremely tightly, as unexamined, talismanic articles of faith that are highly resistant to mere evidence) justifies that comparison.

Specifically, I don't believe that the ideas that Americans have come to have about themselves and their nation can actually recognise and accommodate the rise of China to material equality or superiority, and so I think we should be increasingly concerned about the potential behaviour of the United States as the balance of power continues to evolve. Graham Allison's articulation of the "Thucidydes Trap" received a lot of coverage a few years back, but most of that coverage all but skipped over one of the two key dynamics that he identified: "it was the rise of Athens and the fear that this instilled in Sparta that made war inevitable." To be clear, I don't believe that the United States will actively seek war with China. More plausible routes to conflict involve dynamic interactions with third parties (such as Taiwan or the Philippines) exercising their own agency, coupled with a certain ambivalence in Washington to the prospect of conflict, and a corresponding inability to act (or refrain from acting) in ways that are contrary to one's mythological self-image. The realist narrative from John Mearsheimer about the road to war in Ukraine provides a sobering analogy, for those willing to recognise it.

Much of this is logical and is well written, but without a clear cut and harsh review of what Australia's actual interests are, I fear that it won't help Australia very much.

I would add also that the lack of Australian thinktank writers who have a comprehensive and up to date view of PLA matters and PLA advancements, probably doesn't help the situation whether it is in terms of considering what Australian interests can viably be, nor for procuring the most sensible military hardware and strategy once a set of interests are actually defined.
 
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