Jura The idiot
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dug out this for you:
related to the Russian "Naval Plan 2030", Jul 21, 2017
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related to the Russian "Naval Plan 2030", Jul 21, 2017
Maybe someone can enlighten me on this: at the peak of Soviet Red Navy's prowess, how strong it was? With its cruisers, nuclear subs, multiple carriers and world presence, I imagine it's much stronger than PLA Navy today? Can someone put it to some sense?
Of course, there are many different perspectives to look at it:
- Relative to the strongest Navy at the time
- In terms absolute fire power
- In terms of quantity and tonnage
I understand that Soviet built bunch of nuclear subs like crazy. Other than that, how long it'll take China to reach that level?
Or maybe it's just a meaningless question because the strategy and purpose of the two navies are two different?
Of course, there are many different perspectives to look at it:
- Relative to the strongest Navy at the time
- In terms absolute fire power
- In terms of quantity and tonnage
I understand that Soviet built bunch of nuclear subs like crazy. Other than that, how long it'll take China to reach that level?
Or maybe it's just a meaningless question because the strategy and purpose of the two navies are two different?
If one assumes late 1980s as the peak of Soviet naval power, then one can say the following: Soviets surface navy, 1000-ish km away from their shores, was crazy powerful, with numerous naval aviation operating from the shores, many coastal antiship batteries, many attack boat and corvette sized ships.
But farther than that, their frigates and larger ships were not many fold more powerful than if they'd use today's PLAN numbers and types (with late 1980s tech). Roughly two times, I'd say. With the tendency that the gap narrows down as PLAN puts in service larger ships and more carriers.
Of course, they had more submarines, 108 conventional versus 40ish PLAN's, and 122 (non SSBN) versus 5+ for PLAN. Those alone would make a huge difference.
Their large surface combatants in 1989 were:
27 Krivak frigates 3k tons
26 Kashin/Kinda/Kanin frigates, 5k tons
36 Kresta/udaloy/sovremeny destroyers 7-8k tons
7 kara cruisers 10k
3 slava cruisers 12k
6 sverdlov cruisers 16k (1950s ships)
3 kirov cruisers 26k tons
4 kiev aviation cruisers 45k tons (carrying some Yak-38)
2 moskva helicopter cruisers 17k tons
that's 113 ocean going ships. total tonnage 975,000 tons.
versus PLAN's:
1 carrier 60-ish k tons
14 destroyers with 7+ k tons
5 destroyers with 5 k tons
4 destroyers with 8k tons
28 frigates with 4k tons
6 destroyers with 3.5 k tons
possibly counting 10 more 2.4k ton frigates. (soviets had a gap between 3000k and 1500k ships)
that's 68 ships with total tonnage of 375,000 tons
So numbers wise it was 60% and tonnage wise it was 38%. But the fact soviets did not operate any proper aircraft carriers is quite a game changer. Single Kuznetsov type carrier might be worth more than all four Kiev carriers with their poor Yak-38 planes, even if some notational very early su-33 with 1980s tech is used instead of J-15. Such planes would enable total control of the air and long range surveillance of the seas, whereas Soviets lacked an aerial platform with such range and such radars.
Still, the submarine difference alone might be deciding factor, if technology levels are the same as Soviets had in late 1980s.
But with every added carrier PLAN is getting more powerful. So by mid 2020s a navy with PLAN's numbers and tonnage and 1980s tech might actually hold its own against Soviet navy in the open seas.
Of course, with today's technology, even today's PLAN would possibly win over 1989 Soviet navy in the open ocean.
But farther than that, their frigates and larger ships were not many fold more powerful than if they'd use today's PLAN numbers and types (with late 1980s tech). Roughly two times, I'd say. With the tendency that the gap narrows down as PLAN puts in service larger ships and more carriers.
Of course, they had more submarines, 108 conventional versus 40ish PLAN's, and 122 (non SSBN) versus 5+ for PLAN. Those alone would make a huge difference.
Their large surface combatants in 1989 were:
27 Krivak frigates 3k tons
26 Kashin/Kinda/Kanin frigates, 5k tons
36 Kresta/udaloy/sovremeny destroyers 7-8k tons
7 kara cruisers 10k
3 slava cruisers 12k
6 sverdlov cruisers 16k (1950s ships)
3 kirov cruisers 26k tons
4 kiev aviation cruisers 45k tons (carrying some Yak-38)
2 moskva helicopter cruisers 17k tons
that's 113 ocean going ships. total tonnage 975,000 tons.
versus PLAN's:
1 carrier 60-ish k tons
14 destroyers with 7+ k tons
5 destroyers with 5 k tons
4 destroyers with 8k tons
28 frigates with 4k tons
6 destroyers with 3.5 k tons
possibly counting 10 more 2.4k ton frigates. (soviets had a gap between 3000k and 1500k ships)
that's 68 ships with total tonnage of 375,000 tons
So numbers wise it was 60% and tonnage wise it was 38%. But the fact soviets did not operate any proper aircraft carriers is quite a game changer. Single Kuznetsov type carrier might be worth more than all four Kiev carriers with their poor Yak-38 planes, even if some notational very early su-33 with 1980s tech is used instead of J-15. Such planes would enable total control of the air and long range surveillance of the seas, whereas Soviets lacked an aerial platform with such range and such radars.
Still, the submarine difference alone might be deciding factor, if technology levels are the same as Soviets had in late 1980s.
But with every added carrier PLAN is getting more powerful. So by mid 2020s a navy with PLAN's numbers and tonnage and 1980s tech might actually hold its own against Soviet navy in the open seas.
Of course, with today's technology, even today's PLAN would possibly win over 1989 Soviet navy in the open ocean.
PiSigma
"the engineer"
Soviet naval power like today's Russian naval power is based on nuclear submarines. It is still leaps and bounds ahead of PLAN from experience and design.
If u compare PLAN and RN, it has to be between certain scenarios. PLAN is more powerful for certain things, but RN is better at others.
I basically agree with ur premise. Should have used it as an answer to previous post.
Oh wow. 36 destroyers, I think PLA Navy will have that many in 5 years. The 19 cruisers may take China 10 years or more. But that many nuclear subs, China may never want to have that many.
As to aircraft carriers, yes I think PLA navy will become more powerful in that regard.
Such a formidable navy rusted away. I understand how Putin feels now.
Soviets came up with lots of good things, I have to say. But I'm happy to see that in terms of military equipment, China starts to have its own signature style. DF-21D, 055 and J-20 are good examples. In the not too distant future we'll see CV-18, H-20, stealth carrier fighter. Aircraft engine seems still the lagger here, and China needs all types of enginees.
As to aircraft carriers, yes I think PLA navy will become more powerful in that regard.
Such a formidable navy rusted away. I understand how Putin feels now.
Soviets came up with lots of good things, I have to say. But I'm happy to see that in terms of military equipment, China starts to have its own signature style. DF-21D, 055 and J-20 are good examples. In the not too distant future we'll see CV-18, H-20, stealth carrier fighter. Aircraft engine seems still the lagger here, and China needs all types of enginees.
Looking at the soviet list it does shows signs of an old navy. The Sverdlovs was just to old, good targets for anti-ship missiles. The Kashin/Kinda/Kanin destroyers was not much better, designs from the 1950s and 60s. The Moscow helo cruisers was also an old project, with terrible sea going abilities.
D
Deleted member 13312
Guest
So I want to ask, is there any pictures or videos showing the Type 52Ds having 30mm auto guns like how the Type 56A corvettes does(apart from the 30mm gatling ) ? I have been trying to ascertain it as there are some sources claiming that they have but I just cannot find a clear enough picture that proves or disproves it.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
Why are we comparing PLAN of today with Soviet navy of the 1980s?? different dynamics, different geopolitical environments not to mention vast differences in naval/military technologies. Back then the primary contention was mainly about ideologies, not so much today.
Never seen never heard of it. It would be news to me if it did.
eng.chinamil.com.cn frequently posts pictures of this gun in action on the 056 corvette. If it were on other ships, it would have done the same.