Artificial Intelligence thread

[jli88]

lol there is no point in picking individual cases to justify a point. Moreover , I don’t think China can compete with the IS on salaries paid to tech workers. Afterall US tech companies have outrageous revenues and dominate the world by far, so they can afford to offer far higher pay to their brightest minds . Chinese companies also offers very good salary to its skilled tech employees , especially considering Chinas level of development overall .

That's why scale matters. If you got scale on your side, you have a lot of advantages.

US has got a lot of scale by commanding market in the broader West plus in other friendly markets.

China can only rely on itself, so it should focus on having scale there.

1- Ethnic Chinese in the US.
2- Harvard is in the US.
3- He move from Harvard to OpenAI a company in the US

Brain drain from China?

He was born in China and completed his bachelors in China. Only for PhD did he go to US. So yes brain drain.

Wouldn´t be the biggest loser US AI academic research? that their talent is going to work to these secretive US companies were they can´t even publish a decent AI research paper?

US Academic research yes, but broader US is a gainer because AI capabilities are soon going to be very essential for Comprehensive National Strength.

 

[tokenanalyst]

He was born in China and completed his bachelors in China. Only for PhD did he go to US. So yes brain drain.

A brain drain or brain death would be if he move directly from Tsinghua to work to waste his time working for Sam Altman. Just making a rich dude richer without contributing nothing to the world. He is moving from Harvard probably because US AI Academic research is not as vibrant to say the least.

US Academic research yes, but broader US is a gainer because AI capabilities are soon going to be very essential for Comprehensive National Strength.

If US is not creating talent and the most valuable public AI research is done outside then there is not future in the US regardless of AI capabilities. Today the most used model used in US academic are Chinese models.

 

[jli88]

A brain drain or brain death would be if he move directly from Tsinghua to work to waste his time working for Sam Altman. Just making a rich dude richer without contributing nothing to the world.

If US is not creating talent and the most valuable public AI research is done outside then there is not future in the US regardless of AI capabilities. Today the most used model used in US academic are Chinese models.

OpenAI's capabilities are in fact a contributing factor for US National Strength, the same way Huawei's capabilities are for China.

Open models might be where China is dominant now, but in enterprise coding, where the real revenue is, Claude and OpenAI are lapping every one up. And that matters.

 

[tokenanalyst]

OpenAI's capabilities are in fact a contributing factor for US National Strength, the same way Huawei's capabilities are for China.

Open models might be where China is dominant now, but in enterprise coding, where the real revenue is, Claude and OpenAI are lapping every one up. And that matters.

That would be more like Nvidia and Huawei.

That is the issue, I´m talking about society as whole. If it was for Sam Altman and Darius Amodei the entire academic community would be in the dark related to LLM development, Chinese companies sharing their research has more or less been an oasis. For what? all the secrecy and OpenAI expenses still surpass their revenue and Anthropic is barely making a profit.

 

[sunnymaxi]

Brain drain from China continues. This is the youngest professor in Harvard History.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2061029777256194469

According to the U.S based think tank MacroPolo, Chinese researchers now account for 47 percent of the world’s top-tier AI scientists.

now please enlighten us how on earth China could able to retain all Ethnic Chinese Ai researchers globally. it is technically not possible. the guy was already in US and he just switched from one institute to another but you linked this news to China.. this make zero sense.

do more research about China's brain gain in recent years. there are tons of articles.

a record wave of overseas graduates is flooding back to China

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[Matcher6130]

Brain drain from China continues. This is the youngest professor in Harvard History.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2061029777256194469

I'm assuming this is sarcasm. Prof. Xi Yin moved to the US in 2001:

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I have no doubt he's indisputable genius, but China lost him a quarter century ago when the entire nation's GDP was smaller than the state of California.

If the argument is any Chinese working for OpenAI is a loss for China, then I suppose? At the same time, can you really blame the guy?
A cursory Google Search suggests Prof. Xi's salary would be ~$250K-$300K at Harvard. While an OpenAI research Scientist makes $300K-$400K, plus $470K to $1 Million in stock. Given Pro Xi became faculty in 2008, the "prestige" of being tenured at Harvard probably wore off a decade ago. He's has a family and 20 years until retirement. Completely reasonable he'd spend his last decades doing something fun and getting paid a fortune to do it.

If and when OpenAI crashes and burns, he can always go back to Harvard or China itself. The man left because China was very literally incapable of supporting his genius, not because he hated the country or has a problem being Chinese.

 

[Randomuser]

Always the concern trolls showing up every few weeks.

 

[vincent]

That's why scale matters. If you got scale on your side, you have a lot of advantages.

US has got a lot of scale by commanding market in the broader West plus in other friendly markets.

China can only rely on itself, so it should focus on having scale there.



He was born in China and completed his bachelors in China. Only for PhD did he go to US. So yes brain drain.



US Academic research yes, but broader US is a gainer because AI capabilities are soon going to be very essential for Comprehensive National Strength.

Stop your concern trolling. Your home country (not the US) is the one with the real brain drain problems.

 

[iewgnem]

50k tokens are output tokens not input tokens

Also benchmark is for long term agentic coding. That means if the model is not strong enough it might need to keep searching through the codebase which means that input tokens would be much higher.

Also if it keeps trying to find a solution and it can't fix it, it might keep re-reading files, going back and forth etc

If you have worked with AI tools for programming you would also know that output tokens are usually the least percentage of the total cost. Input tokens are usually much higher than output tokens in coding.

I have ~2 million DS output tokens in May on 600 million input tokens and it costed me $14 on my $50 deposit, I don't need you to tell me how much I'm spending lol

It's one thing to make up a custom benchmark to benchmax western models, it's another to make up cost that can be easily disproven.

There is no "if it keep on trying to find a solution" I use Kimi as main and since last month DS as secondary on a daily basis for actual enterprise level engineering work involving large mission critical codebases, there have been rare instances where DS failed to find a solution, but I have not had a single instance where Kimi did.

Do you know what "long horizon" coding means? It just means one-shots. Enterprise don't one-shot, nobody doing any production coding worth anything do one-shot because you can't guarentee 100% success rate and the cost of not being 100% is catastrophic.

I can't speak for how well western models compare against Kimi / DS in one-shot tasks because I don't use them for that purpose and neither does anyone in real businesses. I can only tell you that for creating features, debugging, testing, refactoring, coming up with ideas, operating tools agentically, reading and writing documentation, things that are actually done in industry, there has not be a single instance where Kimi failed.

I mean why do you think US companies are all starting to limit Claude use and removing token use targets? Because in real enterprise enviroments one-shot benchmarks means absolutely nothing while the productivity of using AI to do real work is entirely a function of how much you have to spend per token. Enterprise management are notorious for having no clue what engineers actually do, that's why they set those targets, now they know, but unless they discover Chinese models, they're going to be lapped by companies that uses Chinese models.

 

[manqiangrexue]

lol there is no point in picking individual cases to justify a point. Moreover , I don’t think China can compete with the IS on salaries paid to tech workers. Afterall US tech companies have outrageous revenues and dominate the world by far, so they can afford to offer far higher pay to their brightest minds . Chinese companies also offers very good salary to its skilled tech employees , especially considering Chinas level of development overall .

China can outcompete the US in lifestyle and status (which is a substitute for pure money) by providing the world's most advanced society to rule over for the truly elite. What China cannot outcompete the US on is general ease of life because the US is so full of mental midgets with brain damage from drug and alcohol usage who just want a blue collar job and China is so full of bustling young talent at the highest rungs of education willing to work day and night for their careers. The US enviroment is just to relaxed and easy with its lack of competition and some people like that.

That's why scale matters. If you got scale on your side, you have a lot of advantages.

US has got a lot of scale by commanding market in the broader West plus in other friendly markets.

China can only rely on itself, so it should focus on having scale there.

In terms of talent, China has more scale than anyone else. The West is not that broad. Combined, they have less population and far far less STEM talent than China. That is why China has come a longer way in a vastly shorter time than the rest of the world combined.

He was born in China and completed his bachelors in China. Only for PhD did he go to US. So yes brain drain.

This is a brain drain from decades ago but he is young; his journey is undecided. Many may venture off course in their journeys only to find in the end that the magnus opus is home. Have you heard of one Mr. Qian Xuesen?

Nonetheless, this is an excellent example of scale. Despite this brain drain, which was more severe decades ago and smaller and smaller now until China is even attracting foreign talent today, China is able to move faster than the West, which did the draining. So, I can only say, their brain drain of China is simply not enough to overcome China's scale advantage; it was not enough in history and it is becoming smaller and smaller today as China accelerates to overtake the West at everything.