Artificial Intelligence thread

Eventine

Senior Member
Registered Member
Strange how nobody shared this here yet, since it's one of the biggest news these days

New benchmark dropped which actually reflect real world coding use cases and imo reflect my real world experience using them.

GPT-5.5 mogs Opus 4.7.
Open-source models way down the list.
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Description on how the benchmark works:

SWE-Bench Pro benchmark is garbage
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On coding, it’s clear Western frontier labs are still significantly ahead in enterprise engineering work where you’re dealing with huge code bases & simple iterative prompts (since people rarely write sophisticated technical specs to communicate with LLMs, much more often you’ll just see “fix this code for me it’s not working.”) This is exactly the setting this benchmark tries to capture.

But strong as they are, the costs of hyper scaling are also starting to pile up. True, they are “cost effective” relative to open models in situations where the user puts in minimal effort (since the open models will just repeatedly fail in those situations), but they still increase the cost of building software dramatically. The extra productivity they provide isn’t justified by the product value due to there being a finite market & only so much money to go around. Nobody is going to spend more on software services than rent, food, gas, etc.

So companies are ironically caught in a catch 22 with AI that is only really solvable via lay offs and scaling down the number of engineers. This is however a vicious cycle for capitalist economies where supply & demand are intertwined. The higher productivity from AI is not being absorbed by the market because consumers are being eliminated by the lay offs. Longer term there will be a ceiling at which the costs of using AI will exceed the market value & once we get there (and it’s probably soon), there will be opportunities for Chinese labs to catch up & overtake via value since it’ll become a race to the bottom on price.
 
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PopularScience

Senior Member
Registered Member
On coding, it’s clear Western frontier labs are still significantly ahead in enterprise engineering work where you’re dealing with huge code bases & simple iterative prompts (since people rarely write sophisticated technical specs to communicate with LLMs, much more often you’ll just see “fix this code for me it’s not working.”) This is exactly the setting this benchmark tries to capture.

But strong as they are, the costs of hyper scaling are also starting to pile up. True, they are “cost effective” in situations where the user puts in minimal effort, but they still increase the cost of building software dramatically. The extra productivity they provide isn’t justified by the product value due to there being a finite market & only so much money to go around. Nobody is going to spend more on software services than rent, food, gas, etc.

So companies are ironically caught in a catch 22 with AI that is only really solvable via lay offs and scaling down the number of engineers. This is however a vicious cycle for capitalist economies where supply & demand are intertwined. The higher productivity from AI is not being absorbed by the market because consumers are being eliminated by the lay offs. Longer term there will be a ceiling at which the costs of using AI will exceed the market value & once we get there (and it’s probably soon), there will be opportunities for Chinese labs to catch up & overtake via value since it’ll become a race to the bottom on price.
According to reports, an unnamed company spent $500 million in a single month for failing to set usage limits on its employees' Claude AI licenses.

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iewgnem

Captain
Registered Member
On coding, it’s clear Western frontier labs are still significantly ahead in enterprise engineering work where you’re dealing with huge code bases & simple iterative prompts (since people rarely write sophisticated technical specs to communicate with LLMs, much more often you’ll just see “fix this code for me it’s not working.”) This is exactly the setting this benchmark tries to capture.

But strong as they are, the costs of hyper scaling are also starting to pile up. True, they are “cost effective” relative to open models in situations where the user puts in minimal effort (since the open models will just repeatedly fail in those situations), but they still increase the cost of building software dramatically. The extra productivity they provide isn’t justified by the product value due to there being a finite market & only so much money to go around. Nobody is going to spend more on software services than rent, food, gas, etc.

So companies are ironically caught in a catch 22 with AI that is only really solvable via lay offs and scaling down the number of engineers. This is however a vicious cycle for capitalist economies where supply & demand are intertwined. The higher productivity from AI is not being absorbed by the market because consumers are being eliminated by the lay offs. Longer term there will be a ceiling at which the costs of using AI will exceed the market value & once we get there (and it’s probably soon), there will be opportunities for Chinese labs to catch up & overtake via value since it’ll become a race to the bottom on price.
Nope, I work with huge code bases and the idea of going back to using Claude is inconceivable at this point, it has no measurable capability difference from Kimi but you can use far less of it with the same budget. I have not had a single instance of Kimi failing to do something, nevermind "repeatdely fail".

And nobody actually work with the huge code base in entirety because that's just not how you do thing. It's also extremely expensive to load a huge codebase into context so you'd especially not want to do that if you're paying an arm and leg.

IMO western frontier labs are significantly behind in term of enterprise use, they just don't know it because the nature of enterprise is decisions aren't made by people doing the real work and not based on actual comparisons.

The catch 22 is only really for western model users, which is why Anthropic will be the death of western industry, as we're starting to see with companies either overspending or have to cut back usage.

Case in point, debugging at system level is one thing that you might want to load a lot of your codebase into context, but debugging also tend to be open ended and you can't predict how long you'll take. With Kimi I can just let it do its thing and not have to think about it, and I'll usually have multiple instances going at it while I do something else. With Claude you either risk using up your quota or you risk blowing your budget, which actually significant limit the amount of utility you can get out of it.
 
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iewgnem

Captain
Registered Member
Strange how nobody shared this here yet, since it's one of the biggest news these days

New benchmark dropped which actually reflect real world coding use cases and imo reflect my real world experience using them.

GPT-5.5 mogs Opus 4.7.
Open-source models way down the list.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 175851
View attachment 175852

Description on how the benchmark works:

SWE-Bench Pro benchmark is garbage
View attachment 175853
View attachment 175854
View attachment 175855
View attachment 175856
View attachment 175857
Lol I'm sitting at 600 million total tokens with something around 2M output tokens on DS v4 Pro Max and my bill is currently $14
I'd like to know how they managed to spend $4 on 50k DSv4 tokens

These guys don't even try to be credible do they?

Western AI is entirely dependant on maintaining investment and there are massive incentive to benchmax, but real world engineering only care about outcomes and they simply lack the performance to deliver it
 

temporary1

New Member
Registered Member
Lol I'm sitting at 600 million total tokens with something around 2M output tokens on DS v4 Pro Max and my bill is currently $14
I'd like to know how they managed to spend $4 on 50k DSv4 tokens

These guys don't even try to be credible do they?
50k tokens are output tokens not input tokens

Also benchmark is for long term agentic coding. That means if the model is not strong enough it might need to keep searching through the codebase which means that input tokens would be much higher.

Also if it keeps trying to find a solution and it can't fix it, it might keep re-reading files, going back and forth etc

If you have worked with AI tools for programming you would also know that output tokens are usually the least percentage of the total cost. Input tokens are usually much higher than output tokens in coding.
 

gcc

New Member
Registered Member
enterprise engineering work where you’re dealing with huge code bases
IMO cheap LLM + experienced dev > expensive LLM
the dev should be able to determine if LLM output is suitable or not
if the code base is so badly written that only a LLM can understand it, they have bigger problems than token cost
 

bsdnf

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think we should have some confidence in Chinese LLM. Claude's lead is simply due to the technological flywheel composed of abundant computing resources, a large number of practical code examples, and model self-iteration.

Meanwhile, Z.ai, Moonshot, and Minimax have obtained substantial funding through IPOs, while ByteDance and Alibaba have integrated resources and increased investment.

Smuggling, overseas data centers, and Ascend have freed up computing resources, and the Token Plan launched at the beginning of the year has provided practical examples through de facto subsidies.

Qwen 3.7 Max also shows that this generation of Chinese LLM has sufficient self-iterability.

It can be said that the flywheel of Chinese LLM has been running for some time, and results are not far off.

But the Whale is undoubtedly lagging behind in this regard. They have just started raising funds (although their scale is unmatched in the Chinese LLM field), their computing power is limited (also due to money), and they have just begun to attract users with low prices to accelerate data accumulation.

btw, I believe that Claude's ban on Chinese users, while increasing the cost of use, has actually given Chinese LLM an opportunity, similar to the relationship between Nvidia and Huawei.
 
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Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
Brain drain from China continues. This is the youngest professor in Harvard History.

lol there is no point in picking individual cases to justify a point. Moreover , I don’t think China can compete with the IS on salaries paid to tech workers. Afterall US tech companies have outrageous revenues and dominate the world by far, so they can afford to offer far higher pay to their brightest minds . Chinese companies also offers very good salary to its skilled tech employees , especially considering Chinas level of development overall .
 

tokenanalyst

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Strange how nobody shared this here yet, since it's one of the biggest news these days

New benchmark dropped which actually reflect real world coding use cases and imo reflect my real world experience using them.

GPT-5.5 mogs Opus 4.7.
Open-source models way down the list.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 175851
View attachment 175852

Description on how the benchmark works:

SWE-Bench Pro benchmark is garbage
View attachment 175853
View attachment 175854
View attachment 175855
View attachment 175856
View attachment 175857
I am suspicious. I get worse results with GPT than Opus, Kimi or GLM with opencode at a higher price. I think this is benchmaxxed and sponsored.
Brain drain from China continues. This is the youngest professor in Harvard History.

1- Ethnic Chinese in the US.
2- Harvard is in the US.
3- He move from Harvard to OpenAI a company in the US

Brain drain from China?
 
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