anti-sub capability advancement of PLAN.

Not only that, Russian sonar's aren't as good as Western ones; in particular American, French, and British sonar's. Usually, the Russians are at least 10-20 years behind the West in technology in a few certain areas, and they try to compensate in other areas (such as power or metallurgy).

antiterror13 said:

PLAN doesn't need to worry about it .... by the time vietnamese navy has received the kilos, PLAN will be much much stronger than now ... so it is not a threat at all

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6 Kilo to counter PLAN that's a rash decision. Since China has had Kilo in service since 1995, using them in exercise and operations. All the research on Kilo acoustic signatures are sure to be done with the time of nearly a decade worth of Kilo operation with PLAN. Even if it was a submarine warfare in current situations the PLAN doesn't need to wait for a future force to strengthen its current one. Its current submarine force of Kilo alone totaling 12 is more then enough to counter Vietnam possible Kilo force of 6.

Bltizo said:

But going back to ASW capabilities of the PLAN. They are extremely weak.

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Very bold statement. Extremely weak ASW in what manner? Ship-Sub, Air-Sub or Sub-Sub? Though its Air-Sub isn't in large quantities the Ka-28 Helix-A is capable ASW heli. Z-9C already only has a light payload to begin with, and short loiter duration. Its more of a stopgap, until China can acquire a decent heli platform to work on. Most probably waiting until the Z-15 is in production.

lilzz said:

how's PLAN's anti-sub capability advancement coming along? I read recently one of the neighboring countries is buying 6 Kilo subs to counter the PLAN.
Should PLAN build more those nuke hunter subs like 093 to kill those kilos? or they waiting for a more advanced version such as the 095?

The 054A frigate has some tracking and attacking sonars, would they be sufficient against the kilos?

I would think that neighboring country is using the subs to counter PLAN's aircraft carrier simliar to PLAN's doctrine of using the sub against USN carrier.

what about anti-torpedo interceptors? is there such development?

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You don't need SSN to counter SSK. Since SSK in shallow and coastal matters are much more capable and deadly then an SSN in same situation. It's a waste to send an SSN to do an SSK work when you got some anyway. PLAN doesnt need to wait for future submarines to counter these 6 Kilo, its current force is more then capable. They have equal if not better submarines in their inventory, and quantity is more. With 12 Kilo, 16 039G, 2 039A/B (+2 soon). Remember China has more experience in operating Kilo then Vietnam Navy does.

lilzz said:

what's preventing them having good sonars? If they can build good radar they should be able to build good sonar.

what about hunter sub 093?

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Sonar and Radar are completely different, that's such an amateur statement. Sonar uses sound propagation, while Radar uses electromagnetic waves. Radar waves in the air have less density to disperse making it easier to intercept. While sonar sound propagation is difficult cause the sound dissipates at a higher rate, due to the density of the water, their are more variables in the water to deal with then the air. Radar are easier, then Sonars in my personal thinking. Remember that Sonar were used before the introduction of Radar. Radar gives a much longer detection range then Sonars.

HKSDU said:

Very bold statement. Extremely weak ASW in what manner? Ship-Sub, Air-Sub or Sub-Sub? Though its Air-Sub isn't in large quantities the Ka-28 Helix-A is capable ASW heli. Z-9C already only has a light payload to begin with, and short loiter duration. Its more of a stopgap, until China can acquire a decent heli platform to work on. Most probably waiting until the Z-15 is in production.

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Extremely weak, a bit exaggerated, but for the great powers of the world China is probably the worst off.

What you've said is pretty much the reasons for China having a weak ASW capability (relative to other great powers). I would have included long range fixed wing ASW assets too (P-3 like planes).

PS: Can anyone identify this ship? It's apparently a "research ship", but is there any equipment on it that looks like sonar or can be used for surveillance uses?

lilzz said:

On the contrary, I think those subs are mainly targeted for the PLAN. Right now is deep recession, Vietnam still a poor country with annual GDP around 80 billion is forking out $1.8billion for 6 kilos, to me, that's a desperate move.
That's their only hope, those subs. Hey, they(government) publicly says they want to take Paracel island back(Even appointed a mayor for that island), which China is currently occupying.

To me, the chance of upcoming naval conflict between China & Vietnam is much >> than CHina & US.

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I highly doubt vietnamese would buy 6 kilos for $1.8 billions .. it would be economic suicidal ... vietnamese economic is really in bad shape, much worse than chinese

and spending $1.8 billions for vietnamese is like spending $80 billions for chinese (in term of % of gdp) ... imagine that

Like I said before it is only a plan, it won't happen

HKSDU said:

Sonar and Radar are completely different, that's such an amateur statement. Sonar uses sound propagation, while Radar uses electromagnetic waves. Radar waves in the air have less density to disperse making it easier to intercept. While sonar sound propagation is difficult cause the sound dissipates at a higher rate, due to the density of the water, their are more variables in the water to deal with then the air. Radar are easier, then Sonars in my personal thinking. Remember that Sonar were used before the introduction of Radar. Radar gives a much longer detection range then Sonars.

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For example, latest radar, AESA needs MMICs which CHina is working on.
As for Sonar, what sort of tech barrier is China facing semiconductor components wise.

I suspect Sonar still using the old process and tech.

antiterror13 said:

I highly doubt vietnamese would buy 6 kilos for $1.8 billions .. it would be economic suicidal ... vietnamese economic is really in bad shape, much worse than chinese

and spending $1.8 billions for vietnamese is like spending $80 billions for chinese (in term of % of gdp) ... imagine that

Like I said before it is only a plan, it won't happen

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It's not a plan or rumor, it's happening now.


MOSCOW - RUSSIA will build six submarines for the Vietnamese navy, the daily Kommersant reported on Monday.

The St Petersburg naval dockyard Admiralteyskye verfi and Vietnam will shortly sign the contract, worth 1.8 billion dollars, the report said, quoting sources close to Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport.

It gave no time frame.

'Initially it was expected that the submarines would be bought by Venezuela, but Rosoboronexport refused to clinch the deal with that country, largely due to a recent meeting between Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his American counterpart Barack Obama,' Kommersant said.

Mr Chavez, a ferocious foe of the United States under the George W. Bush presidency, showed signs of warming to Mr Obama during the Americas conference earlier this month, telling the new US president: 'I want to be your friend.' -- AFP

Sonar is much harder than radar. The main problems are

1. sound is much slower, 340m/s, while electromagnetic wave is 300000000m/s
2. sound in water almost never travel in strait line, while electromagnetic wave in the air always travel in strait line.
3. The disturb of sound in water is much stronger than electromagnetic wave in the air.

Therefore, with a bad radar, you can often get something, but with even a good sonar, you often get nothing.

Detection using sonar is a prototypical machine learning problem; judging from the proportion of Chinese grad students working on such topics, the above claims of Chinese inferiority in sonar systems are wrong or will be wrong in the not too distant future.

Apparently, the military budget of Vietnam has been around 3 billion USD in the past few years, I honestly can't see how Vietnam is going to fork out 0.75% of its GDP for just 6 submarines.