An interesting F-22 RCS versus Frequency Plot

Pointblank

Senior Member
Since those hundred of Ghz astronomoy ground based radar can go across intergalactic. maybe it can modified to be track F-22 and guide the missile.
I am sure F-22 will not be stealthy against a 200Ghz military modified astronomy radar.

Missile guided by Ground based asronomy radar against F-22. That's an idea!

These ultra high frequency radars are no good for search... such radars are designed to be astronomical interferometers, which are designed to probe objects at very high resolutions, and are only capable of a very limited range of observations. These radars are also VERY expensive, and that's why you don't see very many of them.
 

antimatter

Banned Idiot
These ultra high frequency radars are no good for search... such radars are designed to be astronomical interferometers, which are designed to probe objects at very high resolutions, and are only capable of a very limited range of observations. These radars are also VERY expensive, and that's why you don't see very many of them.

I don't understand. If they used for intergalactic space probing, why you say it's very limited range? if it has very resolution, isn't it perfect for target locking/tracking?
I think it can used in conjunction with long range searching radar.

how about a ground based AESA astronomy radar?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
The actual number is not too important.
But do you think that's an actual breakdown point for the plane? maybe 14Ghz, maybe 20Ghz? 25Ghz?

but there got to be a breakdown point! law of physics. Can't be violated!

I think if a plane can carry an overkilled very high frequency radar maybe like a 30Ghz, which way out of normal tracking radar commonly used. I will not surprised if F-22's RCS will shot up dramatically.

If my understanding of radar is correct, even within the 2GHz to 12GHz range, the RCS isn't a constant. Some frequencies will be more effectively dealt than others, meaning there is a sweet spot in all of this. The F-22 is going to be more effective in dealing the 8 to 12GHz band, which is X-band, because that is the fighter radar most of all. The SAM and AEW radar bands will be less effective and so. In the B-2 its the reverse, the sweet spot should be more on the 2 to 8GHz bands, especially between the 2 to 4GHz range. That's because the mission priority of the B-2 is different.

Pointblank is correct in that the higher the frequency you go, the more energy loss you are faced with as the waves travel through the air, and the higher the energy requirement. S, C and X bands are chosen for their general efficiency and balance per mission requirement in the first place. The K bands are very inefficient for volume search. All this means is that the stealth fighters should not be stupid to get too low on the ground or get into range with something like a SPAAG or Otomatic, you know the AA tanks that carry radars on the turret. AA tanks, and for that matter, CIWS both land and naval often use K band radars for fire control. The Oto Melara gun with the 76mm guided projectile uses a Ka band illuminator. For that matter, the other significance of this is possibly using Ku, K or K bands for gun fire control, missile illuminators and seeker heads.

Anti-stealth radars are focused on low wavelengths, which is what you failed to see. That's the wavelengths lower than 2GHz. They have tremendous search volume and range for their power, but what they lack is resolution. The answer to that problem is the big volume search radar has to que a sharper resolution one, and that's where the answer is on the previous paragraph.

There is a certain limit to where shaping is a factor. If the wavelength is long enough, does not matter what the object is shaped like, it appears as an "object", though it may be difficult or impossible to determine its identity because there is no discriminating features. RAM or composites do not work against long wavelengths, because radar absorbency is size dependent, so the material thickness, honeycomb cell or sandwich, or ferrite particle has to be matched in direct physical size of the radar frequency.

AESA is not the cure all for radars; they offer better resolution, redundancy, and high ECM resistance. Not power.

PB, only with the current generation of AESAs, where an element appears limited up to 10 or 20 watts of power. However, elements with up to 40 watts, or maybe 50 watts of power is already in experimental stage. The problem is the tremendous heat, but Gallium Nitride as the semiconductor material might change all that, ushering a new generation of AESAs. According to the Russians, once the beam reaches 20kw, there is so much power you can't hide from it no matter what you do. That means for an array with 1000 elements you need 20w per element.
 

antimatter

Banned Idiot
crobato, what you think when a ground based long range 200Ghz astronomy phase array radar shine on the F-22? does it track the plane well? should be. It's ultra high resoluioned.
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
I don't understand. If they used for intergalactic space probing, why you say it's very limited range? if it has very resolution, isn't it perfect for target locking/tracking?
I think it can used in conjunction with long range searching radar.

how about a ground based AESA astronomy radar?

What I mean is that you are essentially looking for a jumping grasshopper in a large field using a telescope... I say less than 1 in a trillion chance of finding one...

And what I mean about limited range is that such a radar is only good for a certain number of applications... some of which may not be good for guiding weapons or tracking.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
crobato, what you think when a ground based long range 200Ghz astronomy phase array radar shine on the F-22? does it track the plane well? should be. It's ultra high resoluioned.

Astronomy radars cannot move mechanically fast enough to track an object moving fast across the sky. Furthermore, like PB said, its like using a telescope to search for a bug.
 

Engineer

Major
crobato, what you think when a ground based long range 200Ghz astronomy phase array radar shine on the F-22? does it track the plane well? should be. It's ultra high resoluioned.
Radio telescopes, not radars, are used in astronomy, and they are totally passive.
 

antimatter

Banned Idiot
I am also curious on AESA radar of the ship, 052D or carrier maybe?, which can supply MegaWatts of power, if i produce 20 to 30Ghz tracking radar, what would be its range?

AESA can switch from low frequency scanning to ultra high frequency tracking instantly if it finds something suspicious.
 

overscan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Like engineer said. Radio telescopes can detect radiation generated by STARS. Ya know, big balls of gas outputting tremendous energy using nuclear fusion. Due to the doppler shift effect, the radiation they output can be shifted in frequency by the time it reaches us. All of this has nothing to do with F-22 detection.

Antimatter, the frequency is directly related to the wavelength, and hence directly related to the physical size of the antenna. You are mixing up the pulse repetition frequency (easy to change) with the frequency of the radar signal, which is dependent on the physical nature of the radar.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I am also curious on AESA radar of the ship, 052D or carrier maybe?, which can supply MegaWatts of power, if i produce 20 to 30Ghz tracking radar, what would be its range?

That would be impossible to tell unless you get a good power figure. Shape of beam is also important. This is still useless as a search radar but is much more appropriate as fire control like missile illumination. No need of 20GHz, if you can do the job as 12.5 to 15 GHz.
AESA can switch from low frequency scanning to ultra high frequency tracking instantly if it finds something suspicious.

Which is true, since it is frequency agile. On the other hand its not expensive making low frequency radars. The 052C's Type 346 radar specifically, does appear to have some limit to how low it can get. That's the reason why it has a radar using the Yagi antenna on the back. Radars that use such antennas are lower frequency by which I mean below 2GHz.

You might find it strange, but old ships using such antennas---Ludas, Jianghus, Jiangweis etc,.---might probably detect a "stealthy" object better than the newer ships whose more modern radars use S, C and X band and against which stealthy objects are optimized. Among the newer ships I would probably say the 052C has the best chances of detecting due to that antenna on the rear.
 
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