Alexander VS Qin dynasty

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
I don't think anyone doubts that Alexander was awesome. But the question is who was better, Qin or Alexander. Napoleon was also awesome until he met the russians.


Also, who says Qin's army didn't have any of the virtues you mentioned? You have to know that by the time Qin took the power, China had been in massive and non-stop civil war for almost 400 years. What make you think that that many years of fighting would not produce skilled and experienced commanders, soldiers and advanced tactics? For people who came up with "The arts of war" (actually the bood came out a couple hundred years before Qin united China), they got to know what they were doing. If anything, I would think Qin's army would be much more experienced, given collected wisdom and experience coming out of the entire Warring States period.

not only so, but also anyone familiar with ancient chinese history will know how organized and systematic the chinese are since the ancient times. tribes dont exist after shang dynasty

and of course, by spring and autumn and warring states, written works, teachings, are all already existent in china, teaching morals and deep thoughts and social values.

lu buwei will pay high prices for hiring advisors, and even more if they detect a spelling error in the works. lu's spring and autumn, a classic literature of ancient china, represents the early amazing of learning and education in ancient china

and of course, during spring and autumn are where many strategists and amazing talents lived. their achievements separate them from the ordinary, even in today's world due to talents. many chiense idioms came from this era too
 

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
nope, intelligence cant be your reference because he was fighting darius III,the dude would run away from battle. maybe if it was hannibal,alexander would have been annihilated. you have to balance your field a knowledge a lil bit, the Qin army, have fought and conquered seven different states, they have not just one talented military leader, by the end of it they had something like three or four...ppl like Li Xin, Wang Jian, and a little bit earlier Bai Qi who was known for battle of Changping. so talent isnt a sufficient reason here.

and even post qin, there were so many other talents of pen and sword. xiang yu is a very famous example of a mighty warlord, while liu bang for his intelligence.
move ahead and into three kingdoms, they're full of them. the classic cao cao, zhugeliang, sun jian, etc, are examples

xiangyu's famous battles included when he won liu bang's army of 200,000 (or 600,000)with his 35,000, and when him and his cavalry of 28 broke through the ambush by over 200 without losing a single man.

xiangyu aint overlord of western chu for nothing


they dont have to be all-rounded, as in fact being a specialist in one field beats an rounded of mediocracy. but if u have to say, cao cao will be a classic example of both.
 

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
i have no english sources sorry. here is a general overview of the three generals

Bai Qi: there are four greatest generals during the warring states, one of them is Bai Qi. this guy is mad talented and is known for defeating Zhao's 450000 strong army,killing everyone but 200 youngest soldiers.

Li Xin: descendent of one of the four greatest generals Li Xin. known for conquering the state of Han (i think). but boasted about conquering Chu with only 200000 men and failed. guess he was a bit too young back then

Wang Jian: the greatest general in the late warring state period. conquering the second (Qi) and third (Chu) strongest states of the seven warring states (Qin is the strongest)

apart from these Qin also has other very competent commanders like Zhanghan. Alexander should have competent generals with him as well but the problem is since he is always in control,none of his generals would have a chance to independently command an army. and as you can see, as soon as Alex died, there was nothing there to hold his empire together, so there is no way that Macedon can compare to Qin in terms of talents. as i have said, if we are talkin about same of everything in a computer simulated battle, then i dont know, but if we are talkin an invasion upon Qin or we are factoring numbers into this, then Qin wins with ease.

another thing would be that the han's cultural pride and spirit always push the aggressor back out. always. the mongolians, the manchus, whatever
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
few years ago, I have watch a DVD <Resurrection of the Legion>,talk about real Qin army,Archaeologists have discovered the Qin terracotta warriors and horses, to study them, and ultimately to know the integrity of the military system of the Qin Dynasty, it is proved that Qin army much powerful than Alexander army.

this is a link talk about "Alexander pk Qin army military "

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I try to put it in google translate, let some people who don't understand chinese can read, google translate not that good, I already fix a lot, I hope you can understand.

Alexander pk Qin army military

1. Command:
At that time, that is, the Chinese have the <Art of War> and
General BaiQi(白起) of the most outstanding commanders such .. Operations to be cunning. While at the same time period to several hundred years of European tactics after the rigid, although the open, but many lose the war!
2. To deal with a ----, Rome in AD 100, when Kazakhstan in Central Asia and siung niu Parthian war, but due to heavy cavalry España constant harassment dispersed, and constantly attack the Romans the weakest link, and finally the Romans lost. Rome is invalid because the spears array is the result of 10-15 feet is not conducive to turning the spears to form a ring, and thus to strike a balance, and finally, in the Parthian cavalry continued impact of the fall in front of a film a few years later, when Parthia controlled the Silk Road, China angrily sent their armed forces, the Chinese people have a superior and more sophisticated tactics and weapons (shell`` trident spear), and their shell than 15 feet of the spear in Rome more there is toughness (I guess ZhaoZiLong 趙子龍was the kind used in ZhangBangSlope 長板坡shell), as well as ancient Rome than the number of light dagger. And the Parthian army in the field after the first Parthian war was easily defeated, and then assumed to be the Chinese generals linked ichthyosis shield array bow with Yellow Hair defeated barbarians recalled the Parthian cavalry people, completely controlled the Silk Road.
Crossbow arrow --- 3 strong efforts, the military array of Lexington, Europe is also developed with the compound bow, the military array gradually introduced the stage of history, but until the 15th century, the battlefield of Europe, there were no such weapons crossbow . China's action much earlier. Crossbow is a bow from the development of long-range weapons, with shells now there are many similarities. With the addition of the machines used to launch Trichosanthes, which could easily target, and made stand. In addition to the same bow can be used as arm strength, but also can be used feet strength or mechanical power, the power of crossbows therefore greatly increased. <Resurrection of the Legion> mentioned in the Qin strong bow--
"And the arch is different from the Qin crossbow must pedal through the power of the body to tighten. Experts estimate that such Qin crossbow range of 300 meters should be able to achieve effective anti-distance of 150 meters, far from destruction of the Qin crossbow At that time, higher than any of the bow.Qin strog bow range and beyond, the limit may be between 900-1000 meters, a modern rifle is in the range of about 1500 meters. bronze sword used in the battlefield fighting for self-defense and close-up, Qin the Warring States period to period, the long-range weapons in the war to play a greater role, was one of the leading weapons. "
A Phi Zhao (趙括)the layers were to penetrate, is the embodiment of its power.
Needless to say any more, and Qin crossbow in front of the crack troops in Macedonia have not yet had time to play again the advantages of spears, the sharp arrows will be perforated! Macedonia spears, advantages in its long, if the attack came from a longer period of Qin crossbows, then hit the plane as Battleship. Even more frightening is the pre-Qin crossbow can be fired at any time a good string, you can target specifically to fight the Macedonian army soldiers carry the shaft, so that he would become a stumbling block in the array, and the front of the spear into the air. . . (6.3 meters Jun also the spear).
4. Cavalry regard. Stirrup is a great invention to change the cavalry. Alexander no stirrups that era, play a little cavalry. Most reconnaissance. He will be brave enough to charge, then launched into a human missile.
Also under the Xiongnu (匈奴人)said, we must not forget that only China has the ability defeat talent Xiongnu, Europeans face the Xiongnu (Huns, however is a tribe) were only beaten on this point has already stated that wins the East West
Westerners are very weak cavalry in battle Canae (Hannibal is the massacre of 60,000 Romans the war) has been proved that the Roman Cavalry Regiment in the weak before. Han has a very strong cavalry, it is similar to the 5th century AD the Huns defeated the Roman Cavalry Regiment
5. At that time, the height of the Europeans and the quality of the Chinese people not tall (now just the opposite). Greater the gap between the number of armed forces! At that time, science and technology in China is already the world's first, and logistics to supply one million troops. Unmatched in Europe!
6 of the First Qin Emperor Alexander than for several decades too late to say the least, his best time of 50,000 people, however, and the equipment is not standardized.

There are millions of the founding of the armed forces of the First Qin Emperor, is the standardization of weapons production, the shape of the arrow, the same angle, the length of the sword, the length of the shell also has its own standard. Unearthed in northern China and the South have been unearthed in cultural relics comparison . China Central Television Channel also broadcast over science and education. The real weapons of the European standardization of production to the Roman period. than in our country for hundreds of years later.
 
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That translation must be totally off... because last time I checked the Han did not have rifles. Must be problems with, "qiang," and spear/rifle.
 

victtodd

New Member
Some details about crossbows in Qin's army.

The crossbow used in Qin's army are far more powerful and accurate than any other type of bow in that period.

Both the crossbows and arrows were mass produced in standardized manner resembling a modern assembly line in a sense, and the components of the bows were interchangeable. The crossbows were equipped with primitive aiming device called Wangshan (望山) with a effective range of 150m. The arrow's head was optimized in a streamlined three-edged shape enabling it to penetrate any armors in that era . Strict quality control had been effectively conducted, for an example, the name of the armorers were engraved on the bows and arrows he made, in case of a defect product, the person responsible could be tracked down easily and both he and his supervisor would be disciplined.

In Qin era, crossbow shooters were a highly specialized branch of the corps, and they were harshly trained to handle a crossbow that needs be pulled with the strength of the their legs. In battles,as a typical long-range force, they were effectively protected by other infantries.

Qin army also were equipped with gigantic crossbows that literally shoot lances , and the design could allow it to fire continously dozens of lances according to a document called 《墨子·备高临》written by a famous strategist in Warring states era.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Yes, about crossbows in Qin's army.the DVD <Resurrection of the Legion> Has been described in detail,At the time, is the world's most advanced, it can once time shoot many arrow sticks, very large mass destruction.this is confirmed by archaeologists.

Qin carriage than Alexander's carriage advanced, Alexander carriage horse with a rope tied to it's neck to pull carts, they have very small carriage, and carriage can not go too long, because the carts tied horse's neck that let it too hard.
but Qin army carriage horse with a rope tied to the shoulders,that they can go a long way with pullthe carriage, Qin carriages are large, advanced structures, it can load more soldiers, and Alexander carriage structure is simple, backward, and can only carry two soldiers.
Xian terracotta warriors and horses unearthed from, we can see that Qin's soldiers vehicle is so advanced, so that surprised the world.
 

zraver

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The crossbows were equipped with primitive aiming device called Wangshan (望山) with a effective range of 150m.

An effective range of 150M does not argue well for power. Thats about the range of the simple English Yew longbow which was itself only capable of about 1/3 of a horn and sinew recurve bow. Granted horn bows in the 1400's were a bit more advanced that one of 300 B.C. but not that much, they were made from the same materials, by roughly the same people using roughly the same design.

The arrow's head was optimized in a streamlined three-edged shape enabling it to penetrate any armors in that era .

A broad 3 edged arrow might work for some armors where cutting power is desired like leather and unlaminated cloth, but against heavy armors you want a narrower harder point with the edge being completely uneeded. A true AP arrow won't do the massive cutting wounds of one with multiple edges, but if the multiple edged arrow can't penetrate, it won't wound at all.

Arrowheads recovered from Thermopylae for example show a mix of the broad cutting blade type and narrower arrowheads that would have been more effective vs the heavy hoplon shield and bronze thorax and laminated linothroax used by the Greeks.



Strict quality control had been effectively conducted, for an example, the name of the armorers were engraved on the bows and arrows he made, in case of a defect product, the person responsible could be tracked down easily and both he and his supervisor would be disciplined.

In Qin era, crossbow shooters were a highly specialized branch of the corps, and they were harshly trained to handle a crossbow that needs be pulled with the strength of the their legs. In battles,as a typical long-range force, they were effectively protected by other infantries.

Hate to burst your bubble, but crossbowmen are not commando types, they are generally conscripts who get assigned a crossbow because its the easiest weapon to learn.

Qin army also were equipped with gigantic crossbows that literally shoot lances , and the design could allow it to fire continously dozens of lances according to a document called 《墨子·备高临》written by a famous strategist in Warring states era.

Ballista types are not uncommon in the ancient world, and I think your probably misreading your source. They did not have repeating siege weapons. As advanced as they were, they did not have the ICE, or an advanced knowledge of hydraulics one of both would be needed to get the mechanical advantage to create a relatively rapid firing siege weapon.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
An effective range of 150M does not argue well for power. Thats about the range of the simple English Yew longbow which was itself only capable of about 1/3 of a horn and sinew recurve bow. Granted horn bows in the 1400's were a bit more advanced that one of 300 B.C. but not that much, they were made from the same materials, by roughly the same people using roughly the same design.
The crossbow had an effective kill range at 150m, meaning it can penetrate most armor at that distance, the max range is up to 300m.

A broad 3 edged arrow might work for some armors where cutting power is desired like leather and unlaminated cloth, but against heavy armors you want a narrower harder point with the edge being completely uneeded. A true AP arrow won't do the massive cutting wounds of one with multiple edges, but if the multiple edged arrow can't penetrate, it won't wound at all.

Arrowheads recovered from Thermopylae for example show a mix of the broad cutting blade type and narrower arrowheads that would have been more effective vs the heavy hoplon shield and bronze thorax and laminated linothroax used by the Greeks.
The design suited the crossbows well enough so that it can go through all armor types, I don't see what the problem is.

Strict quality control had been effectively conducted, for an example, the name of the armorers were engraved on the bows and arrows he made, in case of a defect product, the person responsible could be tracked down easily and both he and his supervisor would be disciplined.



Hate to burst your bubble, but crossbowmen are not commando types, they are generally conscripts who get assigned a crossbow because its the easiest weapon to learn.
Your logic does not apply to the ancient military system, besides nobody said they were commando types, he said they were specialized. Think along the line of red coats, they did not act like Jason borne or James Bond, but they were far from general conscripts.
(Just to clarify, the Lobsters were well trained in reloading techniques compared to their Frog counter parts, so well that they were able to average 1 more shot per minute)

Ballista types are not uncommon in the ancient world, and I think your probably misreading your source. They did not have repeating siege weapons. As advanced as they were, they did not have the ICE, or an advanced knowledge of hydraulics one of both would be needed to get the mechanical advantage to create a relatively rapid firing siege weapon.

Here you are making an assumption again, nobody said they were siege weapons, their main use was to break apart enemy formation. And again your logic does not apply to ancient China, as historical studies has proven that they had rapid firing "ballista" type weapons.
 
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