going in from southwest, from india, he'll have to climb some of the highest mountains in the world, and travel across the tibet plateau...which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. going in from afghanistan means they'll have to walk through the desert of Xinjiang and then Qinghai, which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. even if they get through those they'll be fighting in Sichuan, which means they'll be fighting in mountains, alexander's phalanx and calvary will be useless...on top of that he is fighting against roughly a million men. the only good thing about this is that if he makes it through all those terrains, he is pretty close to Qin capital because back then Qin capital is in what is now Xi An. which is pretty close to those moutain areas in Sichuan. so if i knew China and i was alexander's advisor i'll likely recommend against invading China...though he'll prolly cut my head off and the western historians later on will describe me as a coward...so actually i'll not tell him everything and laugh when his army gets owned lol.
Alexander VS Qin dynasty
- Thread starter handifei880210
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going in from southwest, from india, he'll have to climb some of the highest mountains in the world, and travel across the tibet plateau...which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. going in from afghanistan means they'll have to walk through the desert of Xinjiang and then Qinghai, which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. even if they get through those they'll be fighting in Sichuan, which means they'll be fighting in mountains, alexander's phalanx and calvary will be useless...on top of that he is fighting against roughly a million men. the only good thing about this is that if he makes it through all those terrains, he is pretty close to Qin capital because back then Qin capital is in what is now Xi An. which is pretty close to those moutain areas in Sichuan. so if i knew China and i was alexander's advisor i'll likely recommend against invading China...though he'll prolly cut my head off and the western historians later on will describe me as a coward...so actually i'll not tell him everything and laugh when his army gets owned lol.
Could you direct us to sites that would give reliable well sourced background on Li Xin, Wang Jian, and Bai Qi. I found a few things myself but the sources I found were not very even handed (discussing both stringent and weakness of their command styles) or well sourced.
Any through sources about the warring states period and the names mentioned (good translations to English only please) would be most welcome
i have no english sources sorry. here is a general overview of the three generals
Bai Qi: there are four greatest generals during the warring states, one of them is Bai Qi. this guy is mad talented and is known for defeating Zhao's 450000 strong army,killing everyone but 200 youngest soldiers.
Li Xin: descendent of one of the four greatest generals Li Xin. known for conquering the state of Han (i think). but boasted about conquering Chu with only 200000 men and failed. guess he was a bit too young back then
Wang Jian: the greatest general in the late warring state period. conquering the second (Qi) and third (Chu) strongest states of the seven warring states (Qin is the strongest)
apart from these Qin also has other very competent commanders like Zhanghan. Alexander should have competent generals with him as well but the problem is since he is always in control,none of his generals would have a chance to independently command an army. and as you can see, as soon as Alex died, there was nothing there to hold his empire together, so there is no way that Macedon can compare to Qin in terms of talents. as i have said, if we are talkin about same of everything in a computer simulated battle, then i dont know, but if we are talkin an invasion upon Qin or we are factoring numbers into this, then Qin wins with ease.
vesicles
Colonel
Having to fight weather as an opponent should not be considered an excuse for losing a war, especially since both sides had to endure the same weather. First of all, Napoleon should have avoided winter battles at all cost. When he decided to stay and fight, he failed to prepare his troops for the winter battles. This had to be the case since the russians who are also human and do not possess any superhuman ability to endure cold were fully prepared to fight a winter battle.
According to ancient Chinese military books, knowing the weather of the place where battle will be held is abslutely crucial to one's success in battle. "The arts of war" actually mentions 3 elements that determine the battle: timing (weather), terrain and human factor (moral and politics, etc.). For Naploleon to linger through the winter, he obviously didn't understand the timing part of the equation. A successful general should always factor in ALL elements that could possibly influence the battle. That was why during Qin's time, almost all battles were fought between Spring and Fall. The generals and kings knew enough to avoid winter battles.
So don't blame the weather. Napoleon should be blamed for the loss. Hannibal, on the hand, was an expert in using all elements in battles, including weather of the day, direction of the Sun.....
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Personally, I believe that the chinese numbers may be a fair bit inflated.
I do not see a difference between contemporary European chronologists claiming that "one Million Persians attacked Greece" and Chinese Historians claiming "450.000 Zhou troops were killed in one battle".
I mean, the Chinese Historians is propably less far off (because at least the manpower was available, the logistics? URGHHH, you are talking about supplying armies larger than the Grande Armee in sometimes not healthy terrain with Iron Age technology! A seemingly impossible feat imho).
Back on the topic:
Given the Qins record, Alexander may have had a chance if he would suceed in making the remants of the other 6 kingdoms rebel again.
But again, my money would be on the defender.
I do not see a difference between contemporary European chronologists claiming that "one Million Persians attacked Greece" and Chinese Historians claiming "450.000 Zhou troops were killed in one battle".
I mean, the Chinese Historians is propably less far off (because at least the manpower was available, the logistics? URGHHH, you are talking about supplying armies larger than the Grande Armee in sometimes not healthy terrain with Iron Age technology! A seemingly impossible feat imho).
Back on the topic:
Given the Qins record, Alexander may have had a chance if he would suceed in making the remants of the other 6 kingdoms rebel again.
But again, my money would be on the defender.
experts have provided different estimates of the number of troops involved. the lowest est for Qin was 350000, highest was above 600000. it was generally thought that Zhao surprisingly had more troops than Qin, 450000 to 600000. even if greece was right next to Qin Alexander's army of 50000 would be eaten alive
vesicles
Colonel
What about Meng Tian?
Also I thought by the end of the Warring states, Chu was by far the most power state, other than Qin. It occupied the entire Southern China. Actually, at the beginning of final campaign by the first emperor, Chu was probably more powerful than Qin. That was why Qin attacked Chu last.
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Actually the chinese 3 elements as you have mentioned is not just what you have explained.
天时：This can be roughly translated into Heaven and Time. And to a certain extent, this can be explain as Luck.
地理: this don't just means terrain. It had a wider meaning. Basically it is Geography, terrain is just part of the overall geography of any location.
人和：This is people (and not moral and politics), which also translate or means, having talents working under a leader.
This three elements are better explained in the latter hans dynasty or the three kingdoms period whereby we can see alot of examples of how the three elements came into plays in various battles between Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Sun Quan.
well Meng Tian would prolly trump all later generals...he beat the Huns lol
Chu was the largest state, but Qin was the most powerful. Qin didnt attack Chu last it attacked Qi last, Meng Tian and Wang Bi was the leading general in that campaign (i was wrong to say that it was Wang Jian earlier). Qin's strategy was to ally with distant states and attack its neighbours. Qi was the furthest, so they were allies til Qi was the only state left lol
vesicles
Colonel
Actually, I thought Wang Jian was the commanding general in that campaign. Initially, the Qin emperor asked both Wang Jian and Li Xin for advice on how to defeat Chu. Wang Jian said he would need at least 600,000 men for the job while Li Xin claimed that 200,000 men was enough to defeat Chu. So Li Xin was given the command. He failed miserably. Then Wang Jian took over. He had about 650,000 men and defeated Chu. That's the version I've heard.
yeah but we are talkin about which state Qin concquered last and it was Qi:roll:...actually we were talkin about Alexander vs Qin and its Qin