Alexander VS Qin dynasty

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Chuck, We are all entitled to our opinions, but why do you think that Alexander/decendents did a better job at promoting their culture?

Dominantly, I would say there are now dominant in no particular order:

- Sino Culture
- Slavic Culture
- Indus Culture
- Islamic Culture
- European Culture
- American Culture

The fact is that grecco/roman/byzantine culture ceased to exist in its original or even singular form. Most of what that is carried over is renascence rediscovery and interpretation of the past. e.g. people have a perception that Alex conquered India, well he campaigned there for two years and won a few battles, but the land was not conquered as large parts of India was still free and was able to raise armies after armies to challenge the satrapies.

You can make the case that european culture and therefore american culture is descendant of Grecco-Roman culture and therefore a part of Alex's.

In terms of population, there is no way that European culture extends more than the billions of Chinese, Indians and Muslims around the world. In terms of achievement can be subject to a lot of debate. But this is an english forum, with users generally well versed in the western education, hence familiarity of the European renaissance.


Throughout history, population size has evidently not been a good indicator of degree of influence upon the long term development of humanity over all. In the last 400 years the influence of an average of at most a couple hundred million people of European descent upon the world's development in general has most certainly vastly surpass the combined influence of many more hundred of millions of people of Chinese or Indian descent. If you look back throughout recorded history, I think you would be hardpressed to find many eras when size of population had been the best predictor of which cultures would excert the greatest influence upon course of overall human civilizational development over the succeeding centuries. Expansion, aggression, cosmopolitan mindset, eagerness to promptly absorb and adapt useful foreign influences much more accurately predict which cultures would be influential, and which ones despite its mass won't.

Regarding the arbitrary classification of cultures into your 6 catagories, If you are to take your notional array of six cultures and analyze the web of mutural influences that have effected their development through the ages, you would find several of these clearly shared much more closely interwoven web of mutural influences amongst themselves than they do with others. You might say Greek and Roman heritage for much of the root from which the main trunk of 3 of your 6 cultures, American, European, and Slavic, sprouted. The heritage of Alexander also had more influence upon Islamic culture, both through direct influence of Hellenistic culture down through the ages to the Islamic lands they occupied, and through the influence of and transmission from Greco Roman world through Byzentium and through Cordoban Spain, than you might have imagined in your sterotyped vision of different cultures. So you might say the world of Alexander form major part of the root of 3 of your 6 cultures, and significant part of a 4th. Your Qin formed significant part of the root of but one.

At this point I have to step back and make an observation about your classification of "civilizations". I have to observe that it seems to be something of habit and characteristic of the Chinese culture to seek legitamcy in its own perceived heritage, and seek wisdom in the past. This predisposes the Chinese to regard themselves as primarily the continuation of some past they revere, and play down the influences they had been compelled to absorb down the ages from what they consider to be side tributaries.

This mode of self perception was also briefly in vogue in the west from mid 18th to mid 19th centuries, when educated classes of western Europe would consider it as evident that modern western civilization is the direct continuation of Greco Roman heritage, and it is suitable to seek legitamy in Greco Roman philosophy, and seeking wisdom from Greco Roman practice.

But the main current of western self perception has moved on from that mode. It is now recognized that cultures are an amalgamation of highly useful influences from large array of different sources, some keenly perceived and woven into a culture's preferred narrative of itself, others unconscious but nonetheless just as influential upon the modern menifestation of culture.

Perception of culture has moved on from an attempt at nationalistic self-justification, to a somewhat more objective assessment of the interwoven web of mutural influences.
 

vesicles

Colonel
The Capitol city of Qin shihuangdi kept the same name all the way through the ages to this day?

Yes, it did. It's called Xian Yang and it is close to the city of Xi An and it is still called Xian Yang to this day.

No matter what name people give to cities and nations, the real influence of Qin is undeniable. As I said in my last post, everything about China nowadays has its root in Qin empire. As I said, Qin unified China, which was seriously segregated into multiple states. Each state had its own systems, even including their own languages. Qin abolished all the other systems and forced the entire China to adopt its system, including language. That is why Chinese speak Chinese the way it is now. And China was able to develop into the gigantic empire it was in Han, Tang and Ming dynasties because Qin unified all different systems (currency, scale, etc etc etc), which allows efficient communication and efficient exchange of products and ideas. China was able to blossom because of these changes. Many of the changes implemented by Qin is still in use today in China, like the unit of weight and length. The political system implemented by Qin lasted 2000 years. It weren't because of Qin, who knows when slavery would be abolished in China. That was completely revolutionary back then. These are some heavily influential matters all because of Qin. Compared to that, the legacy left by Alexander is by its name only. There was no real-world influence what-so-ever left by Alexander. The land he conquered disintegrated into chaos almost immediately after his death. The cities named after him had/has absolutely no real meaning behind of the name. Nothing in the world has changed because of Alexander and his conquests since things went immediately back to the old ways they were once he's gone.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Throughout history, population size has evidently not been a good indicator of degree of influence upon the long term development of humanity over all. In the last 400 years the influence of an average of at most a couple hundred million people of European descent upon the world's development in general has most certainly vastly surpass the combined influence of many more hundred of millions of people of Chinese or Indian descent. If you look back throughout recorded history, I think you would be hardpressed to find many eras when size of population had been the best predictor of which cultures would excert the greatest influence upon course of overall human civilizational development over the succeeding centuries. Expansion, aggression, cosmopolitan mindset, eagerness to promptly absorb and adapt useful foreign influences much more accurately predict which cultures would be influential, and which ones despite its mass won't.

We are not trying to predict which culture would be more influential in the future. We are looking back and seeing which cultures are the most successful. Without people, you don't have culture, period.

Perception of culture has moved on from an attempt at nationalistic self-justification, to a somewhat more objective assessment of the interwoven web of mutural influences.

If you really subscribe to that kind of view, why did you make the previous claim that European culture vastly surpasses the influence of Chinese or Indian culture? If it's all interwoven, then how can you claim that one culture surpasses another? Doesn't really sound like you have "moved on" at all.

As an example of cultural influence, you can find Chinatowns all over the world. How many America-towns or Europe-towns can you find?

Sure, Hollywood movies have a global audience, but how much cultural influence does that represent? China is a huge consumer of American movies, but has that made the Chinese any more familiar with American culture? Just because someone likes watching Transformers, does that mean he's being influenced by American culture?

At the end of the day, if we define culture as the beliefs and customs of a society, then we still have 1.4 billion people who ascribe to one way of thinking and 1.2 billion who ascribe to another, no matter how many people watch Hollywood movies.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
We are not trying to predict which culture would be more influential in the future. We are looking back and seeing which cultures are the most successful. Without people, you don't have culture, period.



If you really subscribe to that kind of view, why did you make the previous claim that European culture vastly surpasses the influence of Chinese or Indian culture? If it's all interwoven, then how can you claim that one culture surpasses another? Doesn't really sound like you have "moved on" at all.

As an example of cultural influence, you can find Chinatowns all over the world. How many America-towns or Europe-towns can you find?

Sure, Hollywood movies have a global audience, but how much cultural influence does that represent? China is a huge consumer of American movies, but has that made the Chinese any more familiar with American culture? Just because someone likes watching Transformers, does that mean he's being influenced by American culture?

At the end of the day, if we define culture as the beliefs and customs of a society, then we still have 1.4 billion people who ascribe to one way of thinking and 1.2 billion who ascribe to another, no matter how many people watch Hollywood movies.

People throughout the world wear western dress, study and practice mostly western developed business and science, aspire to a live style modeled on the west had first shown possible, listen to western music, often takes a substantially western influenced world view, and often express most cutting edge concepts in a western language. This happens in all of shanghai, Beijing, Mumbai, everywhere humans have progressed to civilized urbanity. Next to this what is a few china towns in the middle of western aspiring metropolis?

You stand here arguing about the influence of Qin and gloried of Chinese heritage. But you personally have undoubtedly been so thoroughly infiltrated by western influences at every level that you've become unaware of it. Step back and examine how much the west has made you as a Chinese person today different from what a Chinese person would have been 150 years ago, and you can argue the influence of china and Qin upon the world matchs the influence of the west upon china?
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
People throughout the world wear western dress, study mostly western developed business and science, aspire to a live style modeled on the west had first shown possible, listen to western music, often takes a substantially western influenced world view, and often express most cutting edge concepts in a western language. This happens in all of shanghai, Beijing, Mumbai, everywhere humans have progressed to civilized urbanity. Next to this what is a few china towns in the middle of western aspiring metropolis?



Today's fashion wouldn't be today as it is without Chinese and Indian dresses. Today more westerners are studying and doing Tai Chi, Yoga, Kung Fu, other martial arts and eating more healthy alternative lifestyle than their Western fast food concepts. Today more Westerners are dining on Sushi, and many other Asian dishes. Today more Westerners are getting into singing Karaoke and watching Asian Films, Anime, and Bollywood than before. Today people are still using paper, the compass, Chinese medicine and a thousand other things that China has invented for so many years. Today more and more military academies around the world are studying and reading the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. Today philosophers can't get by without the knowledge and philosophy of Confucius. Architecture and the lay out of urbanization can't be a reality without China, Egypt and India. So in the middle of Shanghai, Beijing, and Mumbai how many "Western town" are there?
 

solarz

Brigadier
People throughout the world wear western dress, study and practice mostly western developed business and science, aspire to a live style modeled on the west had first shown possible, listen to western music, often takes a substantially western influenced world view, and often express most cutting edge concepts in a western language. This happens in all of shanghai, Beijing, Mumbai, everywhere humans have progressed to civilized urbanity. Next to this what is a few china towns in the middle of western aspiring metropolis?

Sorry, but the bolded parts are simply wrong, unless you think phonetic translations of new product names count as a "language". Top Chinese scientists do not communicate among themselves in English, and on what basis can you make the claim that people often take a western influenced world view?

As for the other things you mentioned, what influence do they have on a person's customs and beliefs? Does wearing a suit make a person western? Does listening to rap or hip-hop make a person understand American culture?

What does a few Chinatowns represent? It means that a Chinese person can go to a foreign country and find people who share the same values as himself. How many Americans can say the same thing when travelling outside of North America and Europe?
 

solarz

Brigadier
You stand here arguing about the influence of Qin and gloried of Chinese heritage. But you personally have undoubtedly been so thoroughly infiltrated by western influences at every level that you've become unaware of it. Step back and examine how much the west has made you as a Chinese person today different from what a Chinese person would have been 150 years ago, and you can argue the influence of china and Qin upon the world matchs the influence of the west upon china?

First of all, no one has ever claimed that the Chinese culture is immutable.

Secondly, I have never claimed that I am not influenced by western culture, which I most certainly am. Funny how growing up in a particular culture does that to you, eh? It doesn't make me representative of people who grew up in China, strangely enough.

So what's your point again?
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Not as well verse in history as the rest of you... but I have been reading this thread for sometime now... and is wondering... what culture did Alexandra actually brought with him when he conquered those continents? Other than leaving behind some city that named after him what else did he left behind? I am certainly not seeing much or any of his influences in India and many western culture.

I recalled some documentary in China that actually still show people practicing what was left down from the Qin dynasty, some of the food they ate (recipe are passed down right from the Qin Dynasty) and the religion they practice even stories are told with root from right up to the first dynasty in China and I would say the believes and culture and even the religions of even many of the modern Chinese grow from ancient times and had imbedded itself into the very bones and spirits of these Chinese, even those that would deemed themselves very influenced by Western culture (which by the way cannot be mistaken as a culture from Alexandra or even the Greece).

Also come to think of it... Chinese language survived thousands of years... and up till today we have more than 1.4 billion people still speaking this language and the number is rising (even to the non-Chinese), and may I ask... how many people speak ancient Greece language today?

As to whether Chinese are influenced by the West... I would say... of course, so was the west influenced by the East. Culture is a very special thing. They influences each other... Is the culture of China exactly the same as the one practiced in Qin... no they are not. They have evolved... but the base value stayed the same. So in a sense, you can said that Chinese culture had 'move on'... much like the western culture.

So... I am wondering... who had more influences?
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
In The Case of India there is a influence in the Form of Art.
Alexander as a individual left little all he did was conquer he was dead before he could have a long lasting effect. his Generals became the new kings but over the centuries after his death the Greek merged with the local and the invading. as Mongul, Turk, and other nationality's shuffled in and out. everything mixed and matched and fused.
 

solarz

Brigadier
In any case, while the influence of Hellenistic culture is certainly comparable to the influence of other great cultures of the world, Alexander himself was hardly responsible for that influence. So that line of argument goes nowhere.
 
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