Alexander VS Qin dynasty

solarz

Brigadier
Yes. However in ideal cases whereby a well supplied force that had no worries about their backline supplies are more likely to defeat a force that had to live off the land and had no back supply in whatever they need (food, weapons, clothings, etc). However if the well supplied force whose backline was being cut off and they have no supply or whatsoever from their country, then they would either go into disarray or had to be forced to retreat.

It is much easier to deny supplies to an army "living off the land", than to a supplied army with good logistics support.

In the latter case, you have to penetrate BEHIND enemy lines in order to cut off their supplies. In the former case, you can just apply a scorched-earth policy as you retreat.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Yes. However in ideal cases whereby a well supplied force that had no worries about their backline supplies are more likely to defeat a force that had to live off the land and had no back supply in whatever they need (food, weapons, clothings, etc). However if the well supplied force whose backline was being cut off and they have no supply or whatsoever from their country, then they would either go into disarray or had to be forced to retreat.

However if a force that had the skills to live of the land, even with minimal support from their backline or homeland, they are still likely to last longer.

As seen in the Yuan Shao's example. His force is so much larger and might be equipped as to the same standards as Cao Cao's forces. But his troops went into disarray once his supply was burnt by Cao Cao and thus enabling Cao Cao to defeat him decisively.

If Yuan Shao's forces have the skill to live off the land, then even as their supplies are destroyed, they could still managed to hold on for a longer time and maybe allowing a safe retreat back to their territory.

That is not generally true. the only true case in history where an invading force was able to live off the land and to win a significant campaign or war is.. the nomads... Mongols.

Yuan Shao and Cao Cao covers another aspect of warfare, Cao Cao's troops were one of the most disciplined ones in the waring state with an ideal to fight for and the will to go forth. Cao Cao's army was on home turf, while Yuan Shao's army was the invader. The campaign also lasted 9 months? - In which case i doubt that the battlefield and the area near it can support a total of 150K men under arms plus support staff even if they can live off the land.

It is an energy density issue and army coherency, a hectare of land can support generally a family for a year. assuming that family is 10 men, you need 15000 hectre of land to support the army at the battle of Guandu. That is 150 Square Km or 60 sq miles; and if you spread your men apart so far, the army losses coherency and is easy to be picked apart.

The mongols can do it because they were on horse back, where they can concentrate their forces if needed and disperse them when they need to gather food.
 

waterbound

Just Hatched
Registered Member
That is not generally true. the only true case in history where an invading force was able to live off the land and to win a significant campaign or war is.. the nomads... Mongols.

Yuan Shao and Cao Cao covers another aspect of warfare, Cao Cao's troops were one of the most disciplined ones in the waring state with an ideal to fight for and the will to go forth. Cao Cao's army was on home turf, while Yuan Shao's army was the invader. The campaign also lasted 9 months? - In which case i doubt that the battlefield and the area near it can support a total of 150K men under arms plus support staff even if they can live off the land.

It is an energy density issue and army coherency, a hectare of land can support generally a family for a year. assuming that family is 10 men, you need 15000 hectre of land to support the army at the battle of Guandu. That is 150 Square Km or 60 sq miles; and if you spread your men apart so far, the army losses coherency and is easy to be picked apart.

The mongols can do it because they were on horse back, where they can concentrate their forces if needed and disperse them when they need to gather food.

Actually there are many cases of this. General William Tecumseh Sherman led a 62,000 man union army with 35,000 horses and 2,5oo wagons through to Atlanta, Georgia. Then he marched to the sea living off the land. It was the most successful campaign of the US Civil War.
Hernan Cortez also lived off the land of his enemies when he landed at the port of Veracruz, Mexico. With hundreds of Spaniards he led thousands of anti-aztec natives against Aztec cities. With the aide of a legend, technology, diseases, beasts of burden and dissatisfied meso-americans Cortez conquered 11 million Aztecs.
 
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waterbound

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Actually Chandra Gupta of the Maury an Empire would have finished off Alexander had he stayed in India. Or some proto-Mongolian or central Asian Turks would have decimated the remnants of Alexander's army as it crossed the desert into China.

Alexander was so hated by his men that they mutinied and forced him to return home. Clearly they were homesick and a shadow of their former forces. Even though their phalanx saved them from their first encounter with elephants in battle, they got the point. Clearly the campaigns could get worse and more exotic. Their morale and loyalty were clearly in jeopardy by the time they reached India.

Alexander was a genius and brought up in the shadow of Greek philosophy. The student of Aristotle was well challenged and educated as an heir to Philip the barbarian. Unfortunately his tactical genius would have been destroyed by the Qin crossbowmen. The heavy phalanx is a very weak formation when fighting on mobile terrain. Its tight formations can wreak havoc when attacked frontally, but the pike men can be easily flanked.

Most importantly exotic diseases such as malaria had already started to take their toll on Alexander's Army. There is no doubt in my mind that had his army attacked the middle kingdom. It would have been infected with various influenza viruses. China is the source for all influenzas in the world.

Alexander's best bet would be if he could coordinate his strikes with his cavalry. The Qin were already dealing with the xiongnu warriors. They had experience in dealing with aggressive cavalry of the steppe. Not to mention Qin's sheer population advantage.

In the end there are too many factors working against Alexander if his army stayed in India and advanced to China. But the most important factor of all is that his men REFUSED to move further into the abyss of war. Clearly the Macedonians were not ready to maintain their military integrity in light of the political situation in Alexander's army.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
Alexander was not just a military commander, he was a king and that made him a politician. The war with the Persians has as much political as military genius (and no clue about after war projects). Is there any reason Alexander could not convince the Chinese that his dynasty would be better emperors than the Quin? These had caused a lot of bad blood by their way of conquest and gouvernance. It would have been obvious to everyone that these Macedonians would never be able to establish themselves as a numerous foreign presence and would be a lot more dependant on popular support than the local Quin.
Each and every time China was overrun by a people from outside her borders, these did have support from inside China and soon were thoroughly Chinese or driven away. In essence, foreign military powers were cataclysts that accelerated changes in Chinese society. But the net result was always on Chinese terms, because none was able to bring significant numbers of non-Chinese to this geographic location.

Is there any reason the Macedonians have to be stupid and not set up workshops for more gastraphetes(slower, but much more powerful than the weapons used in China) and ballistae(high efficiency and scaleable from anti-personnel to siege artillery size) that all outrange the Chinese weapons? Are you aware that the sarissa of Alexander's army were two spears joined by a bronze tube that could be disassembled into a spear and a long mace? These phalangites were, unlike the later Hellenistic phalangites, trained in regular and irregular combat with pike, spear and javelin (a lot of Thracian influence, who regularly faced Scythian archers). Against a javelin armed rapid advancing shield wall, it was never a good idea to use just crossbows and China's southern neighbours used this tactic succesful against crossbow armed forces. Javelins can be thrown with deadly effect over a short distance from behind a shield that well protects against arrows with the ability to rapidly switch to spearfencing or swordmanship. Crossbowmen need close combat fighters to guard against such javelinmen, who can more rapidly switch roles of a formation. This weakness of Chinese armies at javelin range has been exploited time and again by their southern infantry opponents.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member


Actually there are many cases of this. General William Tecumseh Sherman led a 62,000 man union army with 35,000 horses and 2,5oo wagons through to Atlanta, Georgia. Then he marched to the sea living off the land. It was the most successful campaign of the US Civil War.
Hernan Cortez also lived off the land of his enemies when he landed at the port of Veracruz, Mexico. With hundreds of Spaniards he led thousands of anti-aztec natives against Aztec cities. With the aide of a legend, technology, diseases, beasts of burden and dissatisfied meso-americans Cortez conquered 11 million Aztecs.

Thats a civil war - it is not an invading force per say as my original statement. I mean, you can do the Long March in a civil war but not really in an invasion. Cortez, I'd rather view him as an Auxiliary to the Aztec internal issues than the actual main combatant; western versions on histroy often clouds our view of history; we really don't know how the Aztec fell. But the main point still is, they lived off their ships and not the land.

Alexander was not just a military commander, he was a king and that made him a politician. The war with the Persians has as much political as military genius (and no clue about after war projects). Is there any reason Alexander could not convince the Chinese that his dynasty would be better emperors than the Quin? These had caused a lot of bad blood by their way of conquest and gouvernance. It would have been obvious to everyone that these Macedonians would never be able to establish themselves as a numerous foreign presence and would be a lot more dependant on popular support than the local Quin.
Each and every time China was overrun by a people from outside her borders, these did have support from inside China and soon were thoroughly Chinese or driven away. In essence, foreign military powers were cataclysts that accelerated changes in Chinese society. But the net result was always on Chinese terms, because none was able to bring significant numbers of non-Chinese to this geographic location.

Is there any reason the Macedonians have to be stupid and not set up workshops for more gastraphetes(slower, but much more powerful than the weapons used in China) and ballistae(high efficiency and scaleable from anti-personnel to siege artillery size) that all outrange the Chinese weapons? Are you aware that the sarissa of Alexander's army were two spears joined by a bronze tube that could be disassembled into a spear and a long mace? These phalangites were, unlike the later Hellenistic phalangites, trained in regular and irregular combat with pike, spear and javelin (a lot of Thracian influence, who regularly faced Scythian archers). Against a javelin armed rapid advancing shield wall, it was never a good idea to use just crossbows and China's southern neighbours used this tactic succesful against crossbow armed forces. Javelins can be thrown with deadly effect over a short distance from behind a shield that well protects against arrows with the ability to rapidly switch to spearfencing or swordmanship. Crossbowmen need close combat fighters to guard against such javelinmen, who can more rapidly switch roles of a formation. This weakness of Chinese armies at javelin range has been exploited time and again by their southern infantry opponents.

I disagree, each arms have their own benefits and flaws.

Does a gastraphetes out range a large Chinese siege bow of similar size - historical records to say combat range is 500 yards? Or can it out range heavier triple bow - historical records to say it can shoot beyond 1000 yards with a ~ 20lb javelin?

Can ballista out range traction catapults which have been known to be able to snipe targets on a city wall hundred of feet away. How does a tightly packed phalanx deal with stone balls bouncing across the battlefield launched by these catapults; or deal with the pots of venomous snakes or incineration oils they were known to have launched?

How well does the hoplites shield deal with these threats? It is a big question mark.

I am also reluctant of simply calling a "Chinese Army" simply as one. Chinese invasion of SEA were pretty dominant. There are hickups at different times but for the predominate period of time, SEA was a vassal to China. What I am alluring to is, the Chinese military is not an identical thing through out the ages.

The Qin was famous for their crossbowmen and siege bows known to out range contempt Chinese states. They are also famous for their Phanlex with 20~ foot spears and halberds; their defensive formations and their horse crossbowmen. The horse crossbowmen are more like cavaliers, they dismount, shoot, and remount. They are also renowned for their skirmishers, often remembered as screaming lightly armored berserkers charging across the battlefield toting the heads of their victims.

The philosophies are different too as well, the hoplite is a one man war machine which when strung together to from a phanlex is an impressive forward driver. How well did it face up to the light infantry of republican Rome - battle of Pydna? This is before the time which roman legions had full body armor, a shield larger than a buckler, a spear and a short sword.

The Qin was a unified fighting machine, the crossbowmen thinned out the enemy lines, the tower-sheild-men protected the long-spear-men where the long spear-men kept the enemy at bay to allow the dagger-axe-men and skirmishers to move in from the sides while the cavaliers move in to the rear or raize enemy camps or ambush lines of retreat.

How well can the horizontal armor of Macedonians hold up to a 20 lb dagger axe on a 15 foot pole plunging down? How well can do the javalin-men deal with the tower shields? Actually, the better question is how well do javalin-men survive a wall of arrows from cross bowmen; 300 feet is not a short charge.

Of course, like all combined arms army, you break the weakest chain, the entire army falls apart. so in a stand up fight between Macedonia and Qin, I won't be that inclined to favor either side.

But here is the thing, Qin is so much larger. the largest army fielded by Macedonia was 50,000 men on the battlefield. Qin was able to field 600,000 men at one time and keeping them in the field for 4 years. If we consider the Qin-Chu conflict, we see more than a million men deployed. The reality is, Qin can lose 200K men as shown in the 224BC campaign, and walk away from it, Macedonia lost 24K men to Rome, and that broke her back.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
I disagree, each arms have their own benefits and flaws.

Does a gastraphetes out range a large Chinese siege bow of similar size - historical records to say combat range is 500 yards? Or can it out range heavier triple bow - historical records to say it can shoot beyond 1000 yards with a ~ 20lb javelin?

Can ballista out range traction catapults which have been known to be able to snipe targets on a city wall hundred of feet away. How does a tightly packed phalanx deal with stone balls bouncing across the battlefield launched by these catapults; or deal with the pots of venomous snakes or incineration oils they were known to have launched?

How well does the hoplites shield deal with these threats? It is a big question mark.

I am also reluctant of simply calling a "Chinese Army" simply as one. Chinese invasion of SEA were pretty dominant. There are hickups at different times but for the predominate period of time, SEA was a vassal to China. What I am alluring to is, the Chinese military is not an identical thing through out the ages.

The Qin was famous for their crossbowmen and siege bows known to out range contempt Chinese states. They are also famous for their Phanlex with 20~ foot spears and halberds; their defensive formations and their horse crossbowmen. The horse crossbowmen are more like cavaliers, they dismount, shoot, and remount. They are also renowned for their skirmishers, often remembered as screaming lightly armored berserkers charging across the battlefield toting the heads of their victims.

The philosophies are different too as well, the hoplite is a one man war machine which when strung together to from a phanlex is an impressive forward driver. How well did it face up to the light infantry of republican Rome - battle of Pydna? This is before the time which roman legions had full body armor, a shield larger than a buckler, a spear and a short sword.

The Qin was a unified fighting machine, the crossbowmen thinned out the enemy lines, the tower-sheild-men protected the long-spear-men where the long spear-men kept the enemy at bay to allow the dagger-axe-men and skirmishers to move in from the sides while the cavaliers move in to the rear or raize enemy camps or ambush lines of retreat.

How well can the horizontal armor of Macedonians hold up to a 20 lb dagger axe on a 15 foot pole plunging down? How well can do the javalin-men deal with the tower shields? Actually, the better question is how well do javalin-men survive a wall of arrows from cross bowmen; 300 feet is not a short charge.

Of course, like all combined arms army, you break the weakest chain, the entire army falls apart. so in a stand up fight between Macedonia and Qin, I won't be that inclined to favor either side.

But here is the thing, Qin is so much larger. the largest army fielded by Macedonia was 50,000 men on the battlefield. Qin was able to field 600,000 men at one time and keeping them in the field for 4 years. If we consider the Qin-Chu conflict, we see more than a million men deployed. The reality is, Qin can lose 200K men as shown in the 224BC campaign, and walk away from it, Macedonia lost 24K men to Rome, and that broke her back.

You start to build a strawman argument out of apples and oranges in order to be able to refute something you otherwise can not disprove?
The gastraphetes is a personal ranged weapon, not a piece of artillery. You can only compare it to crossbows, not heavy crossbow artillery pieces. Same goes for the ballista, this is the weapon to compare with the heavy crossbow artillery pieces. The gastrapehtes was built for power and not adopted for rate of shot, while the ballistae torque spring technology would stay the the hallmark of the longest range medium artillery for millenia.
Traction artillery was adopted from China because it was cheap and had a high rate of shot for an artillery piece. It did outrange handheld ranged weapons and was for example used in the battle of Mohi by the Mongols against Hungarian crossbowmen why devastated their mounted archers. Ballistae do per construction have the ability to propel projectiles with even more speed than the traction artillery. There was never any kind of mechanical artillery that outranged torque spring powered systems. The problem with torque spring artillery are the very construction and operation high costs and susceptibility to changes of humidity. That's the reason why torque spring siege artillery was discontinued in the West and the Chinese inspired traction artillery introduced (and developed into counterweight powered artillery with more range and power that Muslim engineers in Mongol service introduced back to China).

China - advantage with high and powerful rate of shot by crossbow mounted bows.
Greece - more powerful crossbow mounted bows with different energy transfer system - heavier and bulkier
Greece - torque spring artillery - longest range possible, very good anti-personnel performance and very expensive
China - traction powered artillery - high rate of shot, cheap, outranges all but the ballistae, advantages as heavier siege weapon and from behind protective covers.

I know that Chinese are proud of their crossbows and their traction artillery, but the rest of the world was not settled by clueless barbarians. It's rather an observation that enemies had little qualms about adopting good weapon systems from China, but China was reluctant to do the same. So all kinds of comparisons between Chinese weapon systems and others happen outside China or in the few cases when foreign know-how is used for an invasion of China.

I have no idea why you want to establish who would win in such an encounter based on a distorted view of Western military. At least, you could easily correct that because there is more than enough available stuff on Alexander and his army.
Alexander was one of the few guys crazy enough to pull off a world conquest and if illness had not killed him, he would have sooner or later attempted a conquest of such a great land as East Asia.
What you can see with the Macedonians are a number of organizational innovations and slight modifications of existing hardware. It all starts with Thracian and to a lesser degree Illyrian warfare, the powerful neighbours who pummeled Macedon that had cavalry and infantry skirmishers with few heavy armed on foot. The Macedonians adopted the Thracian idea of using a bronze tube to make one long spear out of two shorter spears(that could be thrown). This created the original sarissa. They regulated that the spear shaft were to be made from very tough cornel wood. Next steps were strong shields that offered the best affordable defence. Marching as a block with long spears against an enemy was just one out of many tactics. Their close combat was always supported by a barrage of staff slingers positioned behind - the Chinese traction artillery is an improved version of these staff slings. The main striking force did remain the cavalry (a Macedonian tradition since the foundation of the kingdom) that were armed and armoured like the best Scythian heavy cavalry, but without bows. Instead they cooperated with fast light infantry that commited to ranged combat. Many of these light infantry were Thracians or Thracian influenced and had a number of weapons to effectively fight close quarters with cavalry in their loose order.
A lot of these military traditions could be found by the Chinese in Central Asia that for millenia remained deeply impressed by the military commander and king Alexander (a lot of Central Asians track their ancestry to Alexander and his warriors).
The Chinese had ample chance to prove their weapon systems against the Hellenistic in Bactria system and I see no statement that one had an overwhelming supremacy over the other, but each of them had things that offered advantages lacking in the other.

Your statements show that you are not well informed about European history and armament. You mix things up. Rather ask whether the long spears of the Quin close to Central Asia could not have been inspired by the stories of the Macedonians? The mounted crossbowmen you highlight were similarly operated by the Macedonians with their very powerful weapons, ballistae and oxybeles to big gastraphetes. The Macedonians at Pydna were one of the Macedonian states facing the Romans in one battle. A whole range of conflicts start with Pyrrhus, but all these Macedonian phalanxes have evolved into something totally different from the ting Alexander had at his disposal. They had different armament and tactics and lacked combined arms and flexibility of employment. As far as numbers are concerned, the Hellenistic kingdoms became a kind of apartheid regimes with military power limited to Macedonians and Greeks who formed the phalanx that in a push of pikes decided battle. All attempts to integrate the vast majority of subjects into these phalanxes were canceled sooner or later, while during Alexander's days things were still in a flux - resulting in a much wider manpower base than the later ethnocracies. It was this system of ethnocracy that made these kingdoms brittle for destruction, because there was just one phalanx to crush in one battle for gaining an empire and these empires were so busy infighting that they all acted the same with heavily armoured pike blocks crashing into each other. The subjects, if armed, were delegated to swarms of little trained police forces and skirmishers. Rome, like Han China did not have an ethnocraty, but a system you could adopt and identify with. That gave them strength throughout all defeats against Hellenistic and Hellenistic influenced armies. Many Roman victories were close run affairs and by no means were the Macedonians reported worse swordfighters than the Romans.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
Alexander was not just a military commander, he was a king and that made him a politician. The war with the Persians has as much political as military genius (and no clue about after war projects). Is there any reason Alexander could not convince the Chinese that his dynasty would be better emperors than the Quin?

Well, it didn't take his empire much longer than the Qin to slide into civil war, so I would have to say yes, there are plenty of signs of his inability to govern large territories, especially the later rampant corruption, executions, paranoia, and finally suspicious death. Reading about his military exploits is great, but his contribution as a politician achieved nothing near the sweeping reforms and integration of the Qin empire.

I have no idea why you want to establish who would win in such an encounter based on a distorted view of Western military. At least, you could easily correct that because there is more than enough available stuff on Alexander and his army.
Alexander was one of the few guys crazy enough to pull off a world conquest and if illness had not killed him, he would have sooner or later attempted a conquest of such a great land as East Asia.

He would have to first attempt the conquest of South Asia though, which he gave up on and decided to go after easier fruits of western Europe. East Asia is a land protect by the ocean on the east, the mountain on the south, the desert in the west, and the tundra in the north, not something you can easily conquer without proper logistics, something Alexander evidently lacks as shown by his crippling losses on his return from the failed Indian campaign.

That aside, putting the two armies face to face magically on a battlefield is something else entirely. One thing for certain is that Alexander would not be able to field nearly the number of troops the Qin dynasty can, and during that age numbers were a huge deciding factor. Frankly I just don't see how Alexander can overcome a battle hardened army of 10 times the Macedonian strength, and this isn't an aggregate of Satraps that have conflicting agendas like Persia was.

Excluding the numbers factor, so if we were to put the same number of troops on the battlefield, then I would have to give the victory to Alexander, because his troops were probably superior man for man, most importantly the cavalry.
With that said, being able to field such large armies is a demonstration of the ruler's competence and the overall strength of an empire, I have to say Alexander falls short in this respect.

Alexander might have had a chance if he could consolidate his power and strengthen his hold on his empire, but at the time of his death the Macedonian empire was incapable of fighting a protracted war against a more powerful opponent. Once he has lost most of his veterans he would find it hard to direct the battle as he pleases, where as the Qin dynasty could easily replace those losses because their strength lies in standardization and mass production.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Alexander's death caused the Macedonians, who had conquered this empire for him, to erect an ethnocracy over their subjects. This ethnocracy survived for centuries despite being just a tiny military elite. The civil war was rather about dividing the erected empire or ruling all of it. As far as influence is concerned, it's simply different from China. The Hellenistic empires were like China prior to the Han-dynasty and unlike the Quin, the Macedonians were able to supress all rebellions.

Numbers in ancient sources are always a problem and one of the first questions would be if the Chinese numbers are correct. No doubt they are huge and China did undertake developments for arming and raising a large number of soldiers - who consequently served only for a limited time before returning to production. Concerning Macedonian numbers, you overlook the impact of mercenaries: Thracian, Greek, Jewish and so on and the training of young Persians in Macedonian warfare.

I like your answer, but this discussion also opens an interesting question. The Quin- and Han-dynasty obviously did expand in territory ever since their foundation. It must not necessarily be Alexander who attacks, but China attacking a Hellenistic army and the route taken has been most obviously highlighted by the Han-dynasty and ever since there are numerous conquest of China and attempts on such by this and other Central Asian routes.
Why did China, despite her numerous warrior kings and extensive campaigns, never achieve a similar conquest in their ancient battlegrounds in Central Asia?
There was most obviously a desire for expansion. Part of the answer is that China since the Han did not erect an ethnocracy like the Macedonians. This made their conquests longer lasting, but of compareable smaller scale.
South East Asia did formerly include southern China and moved further south under Chinese military pressure, being vassals from time to time was just an expression of the discrepancy in military capability. That gives many South East Asian nations a long history of fighting Chinese armies with more or less success. They highlight how China fared against infantry opponents fighting in dissimilar manner.

Alexander as a politician was able to convince other people to accept him as their king. I see little reason, he would not have tried that in China. In a civil warfare situation against the unpopular Quin, the odds would have looked very different from fighting a united people under one banner. This is the important part, the Quin were an ethnocracy like the Macedonians and true unification beyond the ethnic borders was achieved by the Han, who created a better empire (and that's why most Chinese refer to themselves as Han and not as Quin). If the Quin faced capable foreign invaders, who were not just raiders for booty = the Macedonians, chances are that other Chinese tribes would have rebelled and aligned with Macedonia in order to settle their grudges with the Quin. As long as the transformation of China by the Han did not happen, it was no less vulnerable than Persia and her vast armies.
In my opinion, Alexander did have a political chance against Quin-dynasty, but not Han-dynasty China and this political chance opened the military chance. It could have worked, but could also have ended like Hannibal's campaign in Italy.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Wow more BS claims.

The Qin Dynasty was not an ethnocracy. I don't know where you get these ideas.

Alexander's empire in central asia fell apart shortly after his death. Meanwhile, if Xinjiang had not been controlled by China for centuries, it would have been considered a part of central asia. The furthest west the Chinese ever expanded was during the Tang dynasty, and that was only slightly more west than the western borders of modern China.

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So what is this BS about China not being able to hold their conquest in central asia??

Southeast Asia was vassals to China only from time to time? They fought China was more or less success? Ridiculous. SE Asia was vassal to China for the vast majority of their history, and that's because while they won the odd battle, they had no chance of winning any real war with the might of a unified Chinese dynasty.

"If Qin faced capable foreign invaders". Uh yeah dude, it's called the Warring States, and it lasted 250 years.
 
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