Aircraft Carriers

bd popeye said:

Thanks I did not know that! Kinda feel embarrased..Oh well. ..Just why did the Soivets take this aircraft out of service?????..It looks some what similar to a Harrier....I will have to check it's statistics. Thanks for the info.

Click to expand...

I believe it's because Yak-38 just wasn't that capable. Yakolev had to develop a vstol fighter, so they came out with the Forger. I read that it only has a maximum range of 370 km.

Alright, let's talk about the air wings of aircraft carriers that will come into service in the next few years. The Varyag, the INS Vikramditya, the Cavour (Italy's new carrier) and any other new carriers that I forgot.

The Indian Navy's plans are interesting, because it seems they have no intention of retiring the Sea Harrier when the new carriers come online. They are being upgraded even though the INS Viraat is scheduled to be withdrawn in only four years time, and several sources talk of the Sea Harriers being included in the Air groups of INS Vikramaditya and the new 'Air Defence Ship' INS Vikrant, so they will serve alongside the MIG-29Ks and the LCA(Navy). I think the two CTOL types will be used for long range strike/air defence much like the F/A-18 while the Sea Harriers will provide CAP (combat Air Patrol) over the fleet, a role for which only a small (ie 6 to 8 aircraft) sqn would need to be embarked and as the Sea Harrier is a relatively small aircraft would take up less space on deck and in the hangar. Space aboard ship could be increased by adopting the RNs practice of shifting the embarked helicopter sqns to supporting fleet auxilliaries equipped with large aft flight decks and hangars capable of maintaining four to six Sea King sized Helos.
The New ADS INS Vikrant has a design closely related to the Italian Cavour but unlike that ship will have an angled deck and Arrestor wires as well as a ski jump for STOBAR ops on a larger displacement (approx 35,000tons compared to Cavour's 27,000tons) but will probably be able to operate the same number and types of aircraft as the ex-russian ship as she is designed to be a carrier from the start.

The first three images are ITS Cavour, the last two INS Vikrant.

The development of the ADS has commenced in 2005. It is expected to enter the service of the Indian Navy by 2012.

The Air Defence Ship of the Indian Navy (INS Vikrant) shall indeed be one of the best Aircraft Carriers in operational capabilities in Asia. The addition of the Naval LCA and MiG-29C jets shall be ideal for the operations of the ADS.

The following website provides detailed information about the ADS :


"The ship when built would be able to carry in all 30 to 40 aircraft, including the light combat aircraft (LCA), MiG 29K, 25 fighters and 10-12 helicopters. The LCA would be ready by then, he added."

Source:

Obi Wan sez;

I was under the impression the Kuznetzov's deck was usually empty because the Russians couldn't afford to buy enough SU-33s for her air group.

Click to expand...

Personally that reason coupled with the fact that you can't spot(park) aircraft on the ski ramp makes the number of aircraft on board marginal at best.

Thanks everyone for the input on the Yak-38..After reading about it you have to wonder why the Russians/Soviets opearated such a marginal aircraft at the risk of the pilots lives? Not to smart if you ask me..

Finn sez;

Alright, let's talk about the air wings of aircraft carriers that will come into service in the next few years. The Varyag, the INS Vikramditya, the Cavour (Italy's new carrier) and any other new carriers that I forgot.

Click to expand...

As for the PLAN CV air wing..Who knows for sure? I don't. But at first I expect to see about 24 Su-33 and 16 helo's. We do not know how cable the PLAN will be of operating their first carrier.

The Cavour air wing may of course eventually have 6-10 F-35B's ..and a like number of EH-101 Merlin variants..Tha's just a guess on my part.

As far as the IN is concerned I know they will have the Mig-29k But I'm sure I read about them aquiring E-2 Hawkeyes. Not sure about the helo though The IN pilots will be trained by the USN. The two countries made an agreement last year. Smart move..

bd popeye said:

Thanks everyone for the input on the Yak-38..After reading about it you have to wonder why the Russians/Soviets opearated such a marginal aircraft at the risk of the pilots lives? Not to smart if you ask me..

Click to expand...

Popeye and Obi Wan, a number of U.S. naval aviators came up with a loving nick-name for the Yak-38...they called it FUGSD, Fly Up Get Shot Down.

But, in alll seriousness, it was an aircraft that gave the Soviets some capabiliy off of their KIev class vesslels that was better than no capability, partilculary when considering any force with no naval air arm.

It also gave them valuable experience.

Obi Wan Russell said:

The first three images are ITS Cavour, the last two INS Vikrant.

Click to expand...

The Cavour and the new Spanish Strategic Projection Vessel, which is currently under construction, are very similar as well.





It is interesting because they only show helos on the vessel (I am sure for political reasons) and yet it has the ski jump.

Everytime I see a picture of these "light" CV's I wonder why they don't have deck edge aircraft elevators? You use up a lot of space when you don't have deck edge elevators. Is it a cost factor? A design preference ? Or just what??

bd popeye said:

Everytime I see a picture of these "light" CV's I wonder why they don't have deck edge aircraft elevators? You use up a lot of space when you don't have deck edge elevators. Is it a cost factor? A design preference ? Or just what??

Click to expand...

I agree! But in defense of the Spanish design, the rear elevator, similar to the design with the US Navy's Tarawa class of Amphibious Assault Ships (LHAs), is actually a deck edge elevator...the edge being on the aft side. I do not know why the forward one is not moved over just a few feet to the deck edge other than possible strength considerations for the lift mechanism to be at all four corners instead of just two.




By the way, did you note that the Makin Island, LHD-8, eigth of the and the vessel the Belleau Wood made way for, was christened last week?

I think the reluctance to fit deck edge elevators in smaller CV designs has a lot to do with structural strength of the hull and the ability to continue to move aircraft to and from the hangar deck in rough seas. This was the reason that the British CVA-01 design of the 1960s had an aft deck edge elevator and a forward inboard unit. The new Spanish vessel has the same lift layout as the Pricipe de Asturias, suggesting it is a configuration the Spaniards are happy with, and her design was originally American! Based on Admiral Zumwalt's proposed Sea Control Ship design of the mid 70s, the only major change made by spain was to alter the bow to include a ski jump, so as fond of the deck edge lift as US designers are, they must have thought an inboard elevator was the right way to go for a small CV.
On a large CV/CVN the forward lifts are usually far enough back and high enough above sea level to avoid damage from 'slamming' in rough seas. On a smaller ship the forward lift would be closer to the bows and as the freeboard tends to be lower too (smaller CVs still tend to have hangar heights of 17'6" as opposed to a typical US large deck carrier's 25'), and large openings in the hull can cause weakness just where the ship is hitting the sea hardest. When HMS Hermes was fitted with a deck edge lift at the forward end of her angled deck during construction in the mid 50s, it's inclusion caused a lot of headaches for her designers who had to find ways of reinforcing the hull girder to maintain rigidity and special grades of steel had to be used. The smallest carriers fitted with deck edge units (to the best of my knowledge) were the US Iwo Jima class LPHs built in the 60s, and they mounted their lifts portside amidships and starboard side three quarters aft. Deck edge lifts free up internal volume in the hangar and thus increase aircraft capacity, no question, but the smaller the ship the more difficult their inclusion which is a pity as smaller ships would benefit most from increased internal volume.

Jeff and Obi Wan thanks for the input..

Reminder on the pics please post them as thumbnails to save bandwidth. The new pictures posted are as large as I would want in this thread..Thanks

On a large CV/CVN the forward lifts are usually far enogh back and high enough above sea level to avoid damage from 'slamming' in rough seas.

Click to expand...

I've seen waves break accross deck edge elevators when they were lowered. Not often mind you..but I have seen it.

The smallest carriers fitted with deck edge units (to the best of my knowledge) were the US Iwo Jima class LPHs built in the 60s, and they mounted their lifts portside amidships and starboard side three quarters aft.

Click to expand...

Yes I am aware of that. If I'm not mistaken those elevators also folded up. I had a neighbor that was onboard the USS Okinawa for 5 years. He says they called it the USS Broken-now-wa..get it? I know after Operation Frequent Wind the Okinawa was in the shipyard in Subic Bay for about two months...

The Makin Island may be a Wasp class LHD but it is certianaly unique. It has no steam plant..No boilers in other words...check it out. I think LHD-8 is a one class ship because it is so unique...



USS MAKIN ISLAND (LHD 8) is currently under construction by Northrop Grumman Ship Systems in Pascagoula, Mississippi. MAKIN ISLAND will be the last LHD built in the WASP Class but will be the only one powered by LM 2500+ Gas Turbine Engines and Electric Drive. Additionally, MAKIN ISLAND is the only LHD to feature an all electric design -- no steam is used onboard MAKIN ISLAND. As the final member of the WASP Class LHD's, MAKIN ISLAND is transforming the U.S. Navy Amphibious Forces and setting the stage for the under-development successor to the Wasp Class, the LHA (R) Class of Amphibious Landing Ship.