Aircraft Carriers

Jeff Head said:

But in the modern era, vessels like the Cavour will be capable of playing an "escort carrier" role (in addition to the LHA role as required) and thus freeing the larger CVs up for a similar role to Halsey's fast attack carrier task force(s).

Outfitted with the right aircraft, particularly when an AEW and ASW variant of the Opsrey becomes available (and I believe they will), and in conjunction with one AEGIS DDG, they could be very effective escort carriers for merchant, amphibious, and supply task forces...providing credible AAW and ASW defense without having to committ a larger carrier.

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The hanger deck of Cavour isn't big enough for all these frames. It is only 2,500m², the hanger of Enterprise is 10x that large. Most of it will be filled with LAVs and MBTs. You make it sound like it is part of the USN. There will be no CVs or AEGIS to back it up. Italy is not trying to operate a US style CSG. She is looking for an amphib with CAS ability.

This ship is perhaps a try of a swing role vessel. It can be used in the required role. If air cover is already available or not necessary, it's just a landing ship with little helo support. If this ship must accomodate the airwing, it has a quiet potent air suopport available or can controll a specific, though rather small, area. In todays conflict environment that is quiet usefull. In a larger operation the Italien navy will not operate it alone but in an european or NATO task-force.

Jeff Head said:

Outfitted with the right aircraft, particularly when an AEW and ASW variant of the Opsrey becomes available (and I believe they will), and in conjunction with one AEGIS DDG, they could be very effective escort carriers for merchant, amphibious, and supply task forces...providing credible AAW and ASW defense without having to committ a larger carrier.

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I'm kinda iffy on Italty importing Opsrey or Aegis technology. Their future fleet, such as the Horizon AAW and FREMM ASW/GP Frigates, all use European systems like the PAAMS system. The Cavour itself will be armed with Aster-15 SAMs. None of these ships will use US-based Aegis system.

I think they'll import F-35B's to replace the AV-8B harriers, but beyond that, I suspect they'd stick with Agustra-Westland & NH-90 helicopters and not import American Opsreys.

This "pocket carrier" is designed to operate no more than 8-12 aircraft in an escort role. I think if they wanted a true aircraft carrier, they could've designed something in the 30,000-35,000 ton range with ~20 aircraft capacity, but that wasn't their intention, as they've lost all their oversea posessions anyway.

Big-E said:

The hanger deck of Cavour isn't big enough for all these frames. It is only 2,500m², the hanger of Enterprise is 10x that large. Most of it will be filled with LAVs and MBTs. You make it sound like it is part of the USN. There will be no CVs or AEGIS to back it up. Italy is not trying to operate a US style CSG. She is looking for an amphib with CAS ability.

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Well, it is certainly not my intent to make it sound like the USN, or to try and indicate that the italians are trying to operate a full size, US style, CV.

What I am saying is that they can operate the Cavour in an escort carrier mode when required. 8-10 JSFs, a couple of AEW aircraft and 6 or more ASW aircraft would allow them to operate in that mode, protecting their own or other convoys if necessary.

As an LHA type vessel, they could still have some decent air cover and AEW for protection of their own phibron, as well as attack capability for close air support.

As far as AEGIS is concerned, the Italians (Horizon Class), the Spanish (Alvaro Class), the French (Horizon Class) and the British (Daring Class) either already have launched, or will very soon have launched sophisticated PAR capable VLS shooters to operate in their various battle groups within the next few years in that role. In the Spanish case, it is an AEGIS vessel. Horizon and Daring will rate competitively to the AEGIS capability.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I believe the Cavour and (and they are proliferating at a fairly fast rate) will be very capable in the Sea Control role...not like a US CVN, but adding significant protection and projection capability beyond what those nations now acquiring such vessels currently enjoy.

adeptitus said:

I'm kinda iffy on Italty importing Opsrey or Aegis technology. Their future fleet, such as the Horizon AAW and FREMM ASW/GP Frigates, all use European systems like the PAAMS system. The Cavour itself will be armed with Aster-15 SAMs. None of these ships will use US-based Aegis system.

I think they'll import F-35B's to replace the AV-8B harriers, but beyond that, I suspect they'd stick with Agustra-Westland & NH-90 helicopters and not import American Opsreys.

This "pocket carrier" is designed to operate no more than 8-12 aircraft in an escort role. I think if they wanted a true aircraft carrier, they could've designed something in the 30,000-35,000 ton range with ~20 aircraft capacity, but that wasn't their intention, as they've lost all their oversea posessions anyway.

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Let me make sure that everyone understands my meaning. Spain uses AEGIS, other nations like France, England, and Italy are developing and deploying vessels that play the same role with many of the same capabilities in the Daring and Horizon class. That was my intent...sorry for the misunderstanding, clearly they are not going to buy AEGIS vessels from the US.

These vessels will be well protected with their own nation's technology that establishes the same types of area air defense coverage for their task forces as AEGIS does for US task forces.

Hope that helps clear it up.

Jeff Head said:

Let me make sure that everyone understands my meaning. Spain uses AEGIS, other nations like France, England, and Italy are developing and deploying vessels that play the same role with many of the same capabilities in the Daring and Horizon class.

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The misunderstanding comes from your loose use of the term AEGIS. It is more than just an AAW shield. It is a totally integrated combat system covering all ranges of capability.

Big-E said:

The misunderstanding comes from your loose use of the term AEGIS. It is more than just an AAW shield. It is a totally integrated combat system covering all ranges of capability.

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Thanks...I do understand full well what AEGIS is...the other systems I mention either are, or will be capable of fairly wide ranging battle and combat management capabilities, so in this context the comparison is not a misnomer at all from my perspective

My original point is simply this...with a Cavour or other Sea Control capable vessel, in conjunction with one of these modern escorts, other nations will have the capability of credable sea control and escort capabilities. I expect, particularly in any major at sea hostilities, that the US could and would adopt similar activities for some of the large deck amphibious assault vessels if pressed, and that this would free up the CVNs from consideration for those duties.

I'm somewhat confused on the number of aircraft the Cavour can operate.

Jeff Head:

What I am saying is that they can operate the Cavour in an escort carrier mode when required. 8-10 JSFs, a couple of AEW aircraft and 6 or more ASW aircraft would allow them to operate in that mode, protecting their own or other convoys if necessary.

As an LHA type vessel, they could still have some decent air cover and AEW for protection of their own phibron, as well as attack capability for close air support.

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All information I can find sais the same: Either 12 Helos or 8 Aircraft or 100 light armored Vehicles or 24 Tanks.

Only on wiki I found: expected 20-24 A/C with STOVL, surveillance and ASW Helos. But wikipedia as a source for military issues ... ?
The spcae seems to be there since you can load 100 of those light vehicles in it, but it looks like it lacks the ability to maintain more then 8 aircraft.
Mayby you can put more on it, but would that be wise if you can't store, move, maintain them efficiantly ?
Anyway, I think few aircraft that can provide areal fleet defence, airborne assault or support strike missions is still better then none.

Scratch said:

I'm somewhat confused on the number of aircraft the Cavour can operate.

All information I can find sais the same: Either 12 Helos or 8 Aircraft or 100 light armored Vehicles or 24 Tanks.

The space seems to be there since you can load 100 of those light vehicles in it, but it looks like it lacks the ability to maintain more then 8 aircraft.
Mayby you can put more on it, but would that be wise if you can't store, move, maintain them efficiantly ?

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The picture popeye posted on this thread from the Italian site:



Indicates that the hanger can accomodate up to 12 aircraft. This means that another eight or more can be topside on deck for a total of perhaps twenty aircraft.

Most carriers do not place their entire air wing in the hangar spaces at any one time, nor were they designed to do so.

Admittedly, my estimates of aircraft are based on conjecture...but I believe if necessary the Cavour could accomodate an air wing of the size I mentioned of 16-18 aircraft without any trouble when dedicated to the sea control/convoy-task force escort role.

A general rule of thumb for the aircraft capacity of a carrier is one aircraft per 1000tons of displacement, a rule which has held true from the sixties onwards. Aircraft have not increased significantly in size since then and some have gotten smaller (eg all members of the harrier family takes up less deck space than an F-4 Phantom, and the F-18 Hornet is smaller than the F-14, though not by much) and the new F-35 is only a few feet longer and wider than an AV-8B despite being nearly twice the weight and far more capable. So a carrier that can currently operate for argument sake 20 harriers can probably accomodate a similar number of Lightnings, as their respctive 'spot factors' are similar (spot factor describes the relative amount of space an aircraft occupies on deck). A carrier may be described as carrying eight harriers/lightnings, but will also have up to a dozen helos for AEW/ASW/SAR and the air group can be re balanced according to mission. Until recently RN Invincible class CVSs operated an attack airwing of 14 harriers (7 Sea Harrier F/A 2s and 7 RAF GR7s) along with a flight of 3 AEW Sea Kings whilst their ASW helo sqn was displaced to an accompanying RFA such as one of the Fort class. The normal aircraft capacity for a 20,000ton Invincible is given as 22, and the 28,000ton Viraat (ex Hermes) can accomodate up to 30 (not bad for a WW2 design) so logically the 27,000ton Cavour should be able to carry at least as many if not more and the switch to the Lightning should not reduce this number significantly, otherwise the Italians will be getting poor value for money.

Obi Wan sez;

The normal aircraft capacity for a 20,000ton Invincible is given as 22, and the 28,000ton Viraat (ex Hermes) can accomodate up to 30 (not bad for a WW2 design) so logically the 27,000ton Cavour should be able to carry at least as many if not more and the switch to the Lightning should not reduce this number significantly, otherwise the Italians will be getting poor value for money.

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The fact that the Viraat (ex-Hermes) is still sailing the open seas is a testimony to all those who served on her and those UK and Indian shipyards that built and have maintained her..

I wonder is an Essex class was ever "sold off" to India or the UK would it still be operational?

Just the other day I was reading about Cv capacities. I wish I saved that link! Anyway the site mentioned that an USN Essex class hangar was 654ft(200m) in length. The article also mentioned it's capicity for fuel and munitions. Which I can't remember..

I wonder now just what the Italian ships capacity is? Afterall that will have a bearing on it's warfight capablity...I imangine it will be at least equal to the Invincible but not near an Essex class. Just a guess on my part.