Aircraft Carriers

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but as was proved in the Falklands there are no guarantees this can be done.

Well the Falklands was not a good example, because our defensive technology at the time was much inferior to what we have now - plus we hand a mere handful of Harriers. This time things would be better, though it's always impossible to predict what will happen in war.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Well the Falklands was not a good example, because our defensive technology at the time was much inferior to what we have now - plus we hand a mere handful of Harriers. This time things would be better, though it's always impossible to predict what will happen in war.

Whereas now we only have a handful of Harriers that are not even radar equipped! Our DDGs and FFGs may be much better equipped than they were in 1982 but there are far fewer of them to form a defensive screen around the so-called second line ships, thus increasing their vulnerability.
 

bd popeye

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By "our" I assume you mean the UK??:confused:

Despite it's size the USN has reduced in numbers since I retired on 31 August 1991. At that time the USN had 15 active aircraft carriers with 12 active CVW's plus two reserve CVW's. Now the USN has 11 active carriers. CV-67 is de-certified. 10 active CVW's and one reserve CVW. However the relaiblity of those ships has improved because the USN has comissioned 4 Nimitz class CVN's since that time. Bringing the total to 10 CVN's vice 6 when I retired. Although the number of other surface ships has been reduced the ships that have replaced them are more capable.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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My apologies for a spot of tunnel vision there. Yes newer ships are much more capable but in Britains case the numbers are getting dangerously low, and replacing 12 type 42s with possibly only six type 45s is not a good idea as those six ships cannot be in as many places as the 12 they replace, no matter how good they are. At the time of the Falklands war the RN had about 55 Destroyers and Frigates in service, whereas now it has 8 type 42 DDGs, 4 type 22 FFGs and 13 type 23 FFGS, 25 total. Simply not enough to meet requirements/ commitments even by the British Governments own statements.

The RNs Amphibious forces may have been built up to a capable force level in recent years but the escort forces have suffered in return and the CVF program is being allowed to slip too, not to mention the bulk of the RFAs fleet of tankers and supply ships are overdue for replacement, and this is a dangerous situation that should be addressed by the UK Government soon.
 

isthvan

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My apologies for a spot of tunnel vision there. Yes newer ships are much more capable but in Britains case the numbers are getting dangerously low, and replacing 12 type 42s with possibly only six type 45s is not a good idea as those six ships cannot be in as many places as the 12 they replace, no matter how good they are. At the time of the Falklands war the RN had about 55 Destroyers and Frigates in service, whereas now it has 8 type 42 DDGs, 4 type 22 FFGs and 13 type 23 FFGS, 25 total. Simply not enough to meet requirements/ commitments even by the British Governments own statements.

The RNs Amphibious forces may have been built up to a capable force level in recent years but the escort forces have suffered in return and the CVF program is being allowed to slip too, not to mention the bulk of the RFAs fleet of tankers and supply ships are overdue for replacement, and this is a dangerous situation that should be addressed by the UK Government soon.

Obi when UK decided to reduce order to only 6 type45 destroyers? Last news I hear was that they have cut order to 8 ships?
Fleet of only 6 Type45 destroyers would be overstretched to provide decent air cover to fleet especially since Seawolf on frigates has to limited range to provide any kind of fleet protection… Also is there any news about future replacement for type22 and type23 frigates?

Ps.

Sorry for O.T. Popeye:(

No problem! bd popeye moderator
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Six type 45s have been ordered with a 'promise' of two more, but wether or not the last two ships will be actually ordered is by no means guaranteed. Even 8 type 45s are not enough, especially now three type 23s have been sold to Chile, the RNs escort force has fallen below the UK governments own stated force level requirements (26 escorts + 4 in refit). The RN is in need of a serious cash injection because capable as it is, it's equipment is wearing out and needs replacing. The plans have been made, the equipment selected, but the money isn't coming yet. Old ships are being paid off before their replacements keels have been laid and this situation shows no sign of improvement.
 

isthvan

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I didn’t know that RN is in such serious situation… One thing I don’t understand is why RN sold those 3 type23 to Chile while keeping type22 in service?

Also it seams that this has become quite negative trend in most of European navies… For example Netherlands sold most of its Karel Dorman class frigates (and will sell remaining ones)… It is become apparent that while Europeans have greatly improved amphibious capabilities and fleet air defenses they seriously lack escorts…

I understand that there is no need for to large number of escorts after disappearance of Soviet submarine threat in post Cold war period but reduction in fleet numbers are reached level on which even basic tasks can’t be fulfilled…
 

Obi Wan Russell

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The type 23s were sold in preference to the type 22s because the '22s have extensive command facilities, due to being more roomy and the RN considered them more valuable.
 

isthvan

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The type 23s were sold in preference to the type 22s because the '22s have extensive command facilities, due to being more roomy and the RN considered them more valuable.

Thanks Obi.

I knew that batch3 type22 have bigger displacement and dimensions compared to Duke class but I wasn’t aware that this ships are fitted whit more capable command facilities then Dukes.
Dukes are quite capable ASW frigates and they still have quite enough service time left in them since they were commissioned during 1990s. Only shortcoming I see is limited range of seawolf missiles.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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The '22s are often used as task force command ships if an Invincible is unavailable, and they are very handy general purpose frigates easily capable of global deployment. The Dukes are also very capable ships, but would find accomodating an admirals command staff a little difficult. Sea wolf is a point defense SAM system, and is still rated as one of the most accurate and reliable in the world. Nonetheless the RN needs all 16 Dukes and the four '22s as well as all the type 42s to meet global commitments, and the recent cuts will only lead to further overstretch (as will the premature retirement of HMS Invincible and the Sea Harriers), a descision I hope we don't come to regret.
 
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