Aircraft Carriers

Fantastic post guys.

I know the Russian decision to put more missiles rather than aircraft seemed
silly to me as well. Since aircraft can be used in both offensive and defensive roles BUT how would the advent of UCAV's affect that in the future ?

UCAVs will in the future (20 years+ from now) form significant parts of CV air groups as the technology matures, at first supplementing manned aircraft (each manned fighter will have it's own 'squadron' of drones under it's control) and eventually replacing the manned combat types whose pilots will remain abooard ship during ops contolling their drones by satlink. The smaller general size of UCAVs will allow cariers to carry a larger number than their manned counterparts so a CVN currently with @86 aircraft at present may be able to hold 120 UCAVs or more depending on their size. A smaller CV would similarly increase it's capacity so a CV now with 50 aircraft would be able to operate 70-80 UCAVs, and a light carrier now with @20-25 aircraft would be able to ship 35+ UCAVs. A rough guide, certainly, but a glimpse of the future nonetheless.

FreeAsia2000 said:

Fantastic post guys.

I know the Russian decision to put more missiles rather than aircraft seemed
silly to me as well. Since aircraft can be used in both offensive and defensive roles BUT how would the advent of UCAV's affect that in the future ?

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That is more towards doctrine. The Soviets considered carriers as "relics" of the past, until Gorshkov came. But by that time, the main Soviet naval strategy was the protection of SSBN bastions not power projection.

The Kuznetsov's main punch was always her shipwreck missiles, the airwing was there to protect it from air strikes. The Kuznetsov's main job was to clear the SSBN bastions of hostile ships and aircraft so that the Red Navy's ASW aircraft and Submarines can operate with impunity.

As for UCAV equipped carriers, you need to have a very large satellite infastructure to relay your signals to the UAV, line of sight problems you know. Also, this must be secure because you might be in an embarrassing position if your enemy hacked on to your signals and use top of the line and expensive UCAVs against you.

bd popeye said:

Thanks to all for the intresting post.

I think a CV needs to be 30,000 tons as a minium. With the proper stablizers and blisters the ship will be very stable. How the ship rides is very important when conducting flight operations. You want that deck steady as can be. Makes for safer and smoother operations.

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I agree Popeye, and my own feeling is that, for today's threat/projection requirements, an optimal sea control vessel would carry 20 strike/defense aircraft, 3 AEW aircraft, 3 EW aircraft and 6 helos to split between ASW and SAR duties. Could probably get away with 30-35,000 tons to accomplish this.

Of course the new QE class will be larger than this as are the French designs and what the Russians, and I believe ultimately, what the PLAN will use. It goes without saying that the US CVNs are well beyond this, but the Tarwa, Wasp and new US LHX class are all quite capable of filling this role as I just defined it.

Be that as it may, as regards the 30-35,000 ton vessels, most countries will find that difficult to afford so you are going to see a lot of the smaller deck carriers out there, with smaller airwigs, fulfilling a sea control role...in fact, there already are. There are already nine such vessels, below 30,000 tons, world-wide all listed as and considered Aircraft Carriers, either already serving, or under constructions.

INDIA CVL VIRAAT 1 ea 28,700 tons
UK CVL INVINCIBLE 3 ea 20,300 tons
SPAIN CVL STRATEGIC PROJ 1ea 27,000
SPAIN CVL ASTURIAS 1 ea 17,000 tons
ITALY CVL CAVOUR 1 ea 26,000 tons
ITALY CVL GARIBALDI 1 ea 13,000 tons
THAI CVH NARUEBET 1 ea 12,000 tons

Jeff sez;

Be that as it may, as regards the 30-35,000 ton vessels, most countries will find that difficult to afford so you are going to see a lot of the smaller deck carriers out there, with smaller airwigs, fulfilling a sea control role...in fact, there already are. There are already nine such vessels, below 30,000 tons, world-wide all listed as and considered Aircraft Carriers, either already serving, or under constructions.

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Well Jeff by that reckoning the USN has 23 aircraft carriers all larger that those listed. And the USN actually operates them. It is expensive. I read on



that it cost $298 million USD a year to operate a Nimitz class. No wonder what the others countries usally have only one or two large deck.."Aircraft Carriers"

All of the ships serve their countries well. And are well suited for the role they are assigned. One exception. I do not know if the Thai CV has ever actually operated aircraft. I did see some "PS" pictures of it....

bd popeye said:

Well Jeff by that reckoning the USN has 23 aircraft carriers all larger that those listed

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I would count all of the Tarawa and Wasp class ships in that category. By todays standards, they are as capable an aircraft carrier as almost any other nation's "real" carriers, outside of The French and Russians.

bd popeye said:

it cost $298 million USD a year to operate a Nimitz class. No wonder what the others countries usally have only one or two large deck.."Aircraft Carriers"

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Exactly...though, with the PRC's growing economic might, she may well get there.

bd popeye said:

Allof the ships serve their countries well. And are well suited for the role they are assigned. One exception. I do not know if the Thai CV has ever actually operated aircraft. I did see some "PS" pictures of it....

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I have seen actual pics of her operating with Harriers on board. Here are three:

Jeff, no insult intended but last year I pointed out that the first pic wwas "PS"..Look at the ships bow at the water line. No wake. There should be a wake because they are launching Harriers. The rest of the pic are probally real. Hey where was the Thai CVH during the Tsunami if it is operational??? Maybe I missed it? Was it in re-fit?

I found this incrediably nationalistic Thai forum about the Thai Navy. Intresting post about the Thai CV;



I think the PLAN should by this ship from the Thai's if they cannot operate it.

The Thai Navy certainly operated the Harriers (ex Spanish Navy EAV-8A Matadors which rely on the mk1 eyeball as their primary attack system) when their carrier was first delivered and most photos of her with these aircraft on deck date from this time. Maintenance has probably been a headache for the Harriers as they were over 20 years old when delivered and I recall only a limited quantity of spares including engines were part of the deal. The Harriers were probably only bought as a stopgap measure at the time (being second hand the price would have been within the Thai Navy's budget) and they most likely expected to be able to upgrade to a better variant of the Harrier by now, either second hand RN Sea Harrier FA2s or AV-8Bs from America. Economic problems have curtailed their plans and the ship is being retained more as a symbol of national pride (very important in Asia) until such time as the Thai economy improves. Whether or not the Harriers are still operational is difficult to say as they have been keeping a low profile and the only pictures of the Narubet I have seen recently show her devoid even of helos.
Perhaps another suitable buyer for the ship would be Australia, and she would be a better buy than the two LSTs (HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbala) they bought from America in the 90s, which cost more to refit than if they had bought a 20,000ton carrier, plus both ships were pushing 30 years old at the time of purchase. Also, from out of the blue, what if India stepped in and made an offer for the ship? They have a stated aim of expanding to a three carrier force and buying second hand may be the cheapest option.

The Thai's have probally had trouble keep the Harriers operational for some time. I found this old article from 1999 about the Thai CVH. The page in the link has a link about Y2K!!!



H.M.S. Chakri Naruebet’s day out

On June 4th, the Royal Thai Navy took Southeast Asia’s only aircraft carrier, His Majesty’s Ship the Chakri Naruebet, out to sea for a little shake down training. The press was invited along, and Pattaya Mail’s staff reporters turned in the following report.

Admiral Narong Yuthawong, Sattahip Naval Base Commander (left) and navy staff members address the press during the operational demonstration.

During the demonstration, H.M.S. Chakri Naruebet and H.M.S. Taksin showed how they transfer equipment between the two ships by helicopter, as well as procedures for evading air attack, surface water danger training, and the pursuit of submarines.

While the ship headed out to sea for the training, Admiral Narong Yuthawong, Navy Fleet Commander, explained and showed a video to the press about the Fleet’s various missions. He also made himself available for answering questions.

A Sea Harrier (AV-8) sits at the raady aboard the H.M.S. Chakri Naruebet.

Since June 1998, the main mission of the ship has been protecting and ensuring the nation’s independence and sovereignty. The carrier shares patrolling responsibilities with other ships. In addition, the ship participates in the joint exercises involving foreign ships during the Cobra Gold and Carat exercises.

The carrier may also be called on to assist the public during natural disasters and incidents occurring on the sea.

...to another while out to sea.

An example of the Navy’s public assistance occurred during December 1998, when the H.M.S. Sukothai was called upon to transfer tourists from Tao Island to shore during a heavy storm. The ship transported more than 120 Thais and 280 foreigners.

The navy has also been involved in over 250 other incidents ranging from piracy to providing fresh water to residents during the dry season.

In 1998, nine Sea Harrier aircraft (AV-8) were acquired and assigned to the H.M.S. Chakri Naruebet. Stories have circulated that the aircraft are non-operational due to maintenance problems, especially the unavailability of spare parts. However, Admiral Narong explained that this is untrue. The parts are available and are produced to this day. Spare parts are ordered from both the U.S. and Spain.

Trying to distract the onset of seasickness parhaps? Crewmembers and reporters participate in ship games.

H.M.S. Chakri Naruebet leaves port for training once every two months. Each of these exercises costs one million baht. It costs 50,000 baht per day to maintain the ship at dock.

The cost of training pilots, which comes to about 10 million baht per pilot, must also be considered along with the maintenance cost of the aircraft, the Admiral said.

After the demonstration, the ship docked in the afternoon hours. All were invited to gather at the Royal Naval Fleet Club for dinner.

bd popeye said:

Jeff, no insult intended but last year I pointed out that the first pic wwas "PS"..Look at the ships bow at the water line. No wake. There should be a wake because they are launching Harriers.

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Great observation Popeye. I am surprised I missed that obvious point and did not see your pointing it out last year. I have replaced that pic in the post above with another I have of the Thai vessel with Harriers on deck.

bd popeye said:

The rest of the pic are probally real. Hey where was the Thai CVH during the Tsunami if it is operational??? Maybe I missed it? Was it in re-fit?

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I bet the Thais are finidng out how expensive it is to operate and maintain such a vessel.