Aircraft Carriers III

Intrepid said:

I would count one unit per year crashed, that are 28 units left after 20 years.

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You must be the kinda guy who toasts a wedding by hoping the Bride and groom don't get hit by a truck.

F35 has only had one actual crash which is a remarkable safety record when you consider we are nearing the 500 unit mark.
There have been ground losses but only one crash.
Harrier was far worse primarily due to the antiquated control system. It required a lot of training and air hours to master and few could justify that expense of resources and material.

"Crash" means any event that decimates the stock:



A good planner considers something like that.

In any case
My point was that 48 makes absolutely no sense for a carrier with an air wing that already is half that in normal ops.
Not just for lack of reserves but also for lack of training. You are going to need to cycle nuggets in to replace those who are trading in there wings for desks and other commands. That means at least another air wing in number.

I mean if you have 48
You can only really use maybe 12 on the Queen Elizabeth 12 on the Ark royal 12 In training and 12 In storage. That's fair but not great especially for that ships size.

I suspect that it is expected to take combat aircraft of other nations on board.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

...
As Jura points out.

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"technicalities aside, if the RN got only 48 F-35Bs, it'd hardly justify two supercarriers in use" quoted

LOL thank you, but personally I think the RN will keep the two supercarriers no matter how small (or big) their airwings become;

this belief is based on my classification of the QE class which I've promised to Mr. Russell not to use again here

TerraN_EmpirE said:

You can only really use maybe 12 on the Queen Elizabeth 12 on the Ark royal 12 In training and 12 In storage. That's fair but not great especially for that ships size.

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The Royal Navy has said for years that a peacetime cruise would only have 12 F35s embarked. They also said they could surge to 36 F35s plus some helos.

I dont think they realize they have two carriers to be honest. Especially since Prince of Wales was only completed when someone realized it was cheaper to build her than pay the penalties for canceling the contract.

Yazzinra said:

The Royal Navy has said for years that a peacetime cruise would only have 12 F35s embarked. They also said they could surge to 36 F35s plus some helos.

I dont think they realize they have two carriers to be honest. Especially since Prince of Wales was only completed when someone realized it was cheaper to build her than pay the penalties for canceling the contract.

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The Plan has always been to operate both carriers alternately, so that one is always available to deploy at short notice and the other is at longer notice to eventually relieve the first later on. It's the same pattern employed with the Invincible class for years (the third ship being in reserve or major refit, something not expected for the QECs.

12 F-35Bs has been stated to be the MINIMUM number they will deploy with, often augmented by USMC aircraft when necessary, plus the helicopter sqns (one with ASW Merlins, one with AEW Merlins and probably one with Junglie Merlins) as well as from time to time AAC Apaches and some RAF Chinooks. The decks will be far from empty. Currently we have only one frontline sqn of F-35Bs (617 sqn) and the second (809NAS) won't stand up until 2023. Two more sqns are scheduled to stand up later in the 2020s under current plans, so until that happens 12 UK Lightnings is all we'll see for quite a while. Even after 809 stands up, it will, like the carriers themselves, alternate as the 'on call' sqn rather than deploying alongside 617.

Obi Wan Russell said:

The Plan has always been to operate both carriers alternately, so that one is always available to deploy at short notice and the other is at longer notice to eventually relieve the first later on. It's the same pattern employed with the Invincible class for years (the third ship being in reserve or major refit, something not expected for the QECs.

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This is wrong. The RN built Queen Elizabeth, and there was alot of talk about whether Prince of Wales would be built. Once construction started, the MoD talked about scrapping her, selling her once finished, converting her, etc etc. I think they discussed every optino and finally SETTLED on keeping her. The Queen Elizabeth class was just as likely to become a class of one as two.

Ill dig up some links tomorrow if you dont feel like doing some googling, but its late and i ahve work at 0500

Yazzinra said:

This is wrong. The RN built Queen Elizabeth, and there was alot of talk about whether Prince of Wales would be built. Once construction started, the MoD talked about scrapping her, selling her once finished, converting her, etc etc. I think they discussed every optino and finally SETTLED on keeping her. The Queen Elizabeth class was just as likely to become a class of one as two.

Ill dig up some links tomorrow if you dont feel like doing some googling, but its late and i ahve work at 0500

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What I posted is not wrong. You are confusing political machinations with the original Naval plan. The contract to build both ships with penalty clauses for cancellation was signed to prevent any incoming administration from crippling the Royal Navy, as Cameron and Osbourne tried to do, The project was for the delivery of CEPP, Carrier Enabled Power Projection, and it had been established long before the first steel was cut that the only way to guarantee 24/7/365 availability was with two ships. The operating plan from the RN's point of view remains unchanged, attempts at interference from the politicians were always doomed to end in failure, just look at the positive publicity the QE has generated for the RN since completion. Not completing PoW would be so embarrassing for any sitting Government. That's the one thing they hate the most, public exposure of political incompetence, and they always have so much to go around!

Through the turbulent time 2010 to 2014 when Cameron finally admitted defeat on the carrier project, the RN kept quiet and carried on with the assumption they would get both carriers, and indeed they were right.

Obi Wan Russell said:

often augmented by USMC aircraft when necessary

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I personally suspect that the USMC and USN might be a major helping hand for the RN carrier program in more than just F35Bs.
V22 Osprey' s ability to deliver additional engines/Spare parts/Biscuits from mother, on demand almost globally compared to the shorter (legged) slower Merlin or Chinook helicopters.
The Marines have been working on a roll on Tanking system to top off Lightning jump jets.
The Marines MUX program promises a drone AEW with longer range and higher altitudes than Merlin, would be smaller and cheaper then Osprey able to pull other missions to including ASW, ISR and strike well still being able to take off from a helipad or ride the ramp.
Both systems V22 and MUX were conceived specifically for operations off V/STOL carriers. And MUX even more so as it could cross deck off escorts to boot.
Optimally some of these should become part of the RN air wing but the British budget issues mean mostlikey if they do get accessed it would be though cross decking with the U.S. forces.