Admiral Kuznetsov in international waters off the coast of Norway. October 17, 2016
(photo taken from a Norwegian surveillance aircraft)
(photo taken from a Norwegian surveillance aircraft)
Aircraft Carriers III
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Agreed. But there does seem to be a strange urge from many members of this and other forums to push for replacing the RN Amphibious forces before their time. Our oldest Amphib is HMS Ocean, which is only 18 years old. The Albion class LPDs, the Bay class LSDs and the Point class LSLs (my classification) are all younger and planned to have thirty-plus year lifespans, so they are barely into their 'teenage years'. Everyone seems keen to sing the praises of the LHD as if it is the be all and end all of Naval Warfare. They are powerful and important ships, but also represent the 'all your eggs in one basket' school of thought. In the context of the USN, they make a lot of sense, they have so large a fleet as well as so many other units (LPDs and LSDs not to mention the rest of the USN to protect them), so that if an enemy managed to take out a 'Gator', the loss would not necessarily be fatal to the mission. To the RN, following it's experiences in the Falklands and elsewhere over the last sixty years, there is a preference for spreading the risk over as many hulls as possible, as a defence against enemy air attack.
An LHD cannot deploy landing craft from it's well deck until it is stationary and flooded down, a process which is unpleasantly slow at the best of times. Even in this high tech age the best defence for any warship is speed and manoeuvre, something which for example saved HMS Glamorgan when attacked by a shore based Exocet missile in the Falklands When under attack by an SSM/ASM, standard procedure for just about any Navy is to turn away at speed and deploy Chaff/flares. Turning away reduces your radar cross section by 90% and the fast you are going the quicker you turn. An amphib at anchor offloading troops by landing craft is the proverbial sitting duck in this respect, It's unavoidable if you want to put tanks and other vehicles ashore some ships are going to have to anchor in harm's way. RN practice since the early sixties has been to use LPHs to land the bulk of the troops ashore by helicopter, keeping the ship mobile and as far from the 'beach' as possible for protection, then once the beachhead is secured the LPDs and LSDs can offload their cargos in relative safety. For example if HMS Bulwark had been reactivated for the Falklands war she would still never have entered san Carlos Water with the rest of the Landing force. She would have stayed at sea, probably escorted by a type 42 DDG and a type 22 FFG at the very least, and launched her helo sqns from there. Experience has taught the RN that in such an operation, despite your best efforts, there's a good chance you could lose a ship or two to enemy action. If you only have one big ship, that's a hell of a risk to take, hence the RN's preference for a multi ship LPH/LPD LSD policy rather than going for a smaller number of LHDs.
A little higher res:
On deck I see three Mig-29Ks aft and three SU-33s forward.
...and three helos.
I wnder if they are embarking any more? Perhaps a few more of eacj in the hangar?
Jura The idiot
General
I'm not getting this:
retain
in
The campaign to retain, and eventually replace HMS Ocean starts here
so I'm guessing your 'many members of this and other forums' see this retirement as an attempt to boast about two QEs with not much on and inside of them (and we had a discussion here about how great or not is the F-35 Project for the economics
OK maybe you were right, the project will turn out to be a success for the UK, and the decks will be full of F-35s, but ... what if in the meantime (around 2020) the RN would have to go to for example Western Africa again?)
... because
... and I'm not going to go into any play of words (LOL because I would need to consult a dictionary then), but I noticed
retain
in
The campaign to retain, and eventually replace HMS Ocean starts here
so I'm guessing your 'many members of this and other forums' see this retirement as an attempt to boast about two QEs with not much on and inside of them (and we had a discussion here about how great or not is the F-35 Project for the economics
OK maybe you were right, the project will turn out to be a success for the UK, and the decks will be full of F-35s, but ... what if in the meantime (around 2020) the RN would have to go to for example Western Africa again?)
Look in the Rusian topic i have all posted from she left Severomorsk, first pics on the deck 6 Su-33 and 4 Mig-29K almost sure a total of 10 Su-33, 4 Mig-29 and 10 +helos
There is a long standing joke amongst the RAF that their air bases get millions spent on refurbishing accommodations and other facilities only if they are to be closed down within a year or two, whilst bases which are retained are left to rot. Probably a coincidental aspect of the general incompetence of the MOD to manage these things. A lot of those who are against retaining Ocean say 'she was only designed for a twenty year life span' (true but that means they weren't expecting to need her after that and a big mid life refit wasn't factored in to her through-life costs), Also a lot of her internal machinery and systems were bought COTS (Commercially available Off The Shelf) to save money and many proved to be unequal to the task. True, but a lot of these items have been replaced over the years with better more reliable systems. Even her main radar is now an ARTISAN/type 997, in common with the upgraded type 23s and even the QECs. Both Ocean and the T23s were originally given short lifespans (18-20 years) as a move to force the government to keep building warships on a rolling programme (which they are weaselling their way out of at the moment). In the case of the T23s they 18 years and gone idea has gone and they are being refitted for longer lifespans. No one has yet come up with any sound engineering reason why Ocean could not be extended, only financial ones (including available manpower).I'm not getting this:
... because
... and I'm not going to go into any play of words (LOL because I would need to consult a dictionary then), but I noticed
retain
in
The campaign to retain, and eventually replace HMS Ocean starts here
so I'm guessing your 'many members of this and other forums' see this retirement as an attempt to boast about two QEs with not much on and inside of them (and we had a discussion here about how great or not is the F-35 Project for the economics
Jura The idiot
General
let me rephrase:
... was the part which attracted my interest, because I have previously pointed out
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-110#post-413002
the HMS Ocean will be gone in about two years from now, and I have also pointed out
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-129#post-419760
the HMS Queen Elizabeth will achieve FOC in about ten years from now, so I wondered in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-132#post-420458
what would the RN do around 2020 if it then had to go into something like
was, and I think I can understand arguments for obtaining something else than two QEs (at the expense of scrapping the HMS Ocean etc.) while keeping the Albions;
for example four units of something-like-Juan-Carlos-I (instead of 2 QEs and 2 Albions)
LOL it's just what could've been done differently, of course ... what will actually happen around 2020:
'capability gap' (I think this is the Politically Correct expression) and waiting for F-35Bs
(neither is a problem in the middle of Europe
EDIT but as I've said before, I'm a big fan of the Royal Navy)
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A Sierra Leone type of operation from 2020 onwards will be one of the easier tasks to achieve, 'Big Liz' will be available for the LPH role at the very least and the other amphibs (Albions/Bays and Points) will also be in service and available. The only question is concerning air cover, will the F-35Bs be ready and available in sufficient numbers or will the operation have to be covered either by an allied Navy (eg USN) or by land based air cover (RAF Typhoons). My guess is the Lightning force will be 'chomping at the bit' to get involved in any such op as early as possible in order to prove themselves to the doubters. We will have 617 sqn operational by then and probably a core of 809NAS in training (we already have over 40 FAA Fast Jet Pilots in service now, many flying Hornets from US carriers, some flying F-35Bs in the US and some flying with the MN from Charles de Gaulle. Additionally we have a number flying with 736NAS in the UK and a few more with the RAF flying Typhoons). Forming a second sqn will not be a problem of manpower, the schedule as officially stated always struck me as rather pedestrian, and has more to do with the Government not wanting to spend money bringing the aircraft in to service any sooner. It won't really take three or four years to commission the second sqn after the first, .let me rephrase:
... was the part which attracted my interest, because I have previously pointed out
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-110#post-413002
the HMS Ocean will be gone in about two years from now, and I have also pointed out
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-129#post-419760
the HMS Queen Elizabeth will achieve FOC in about ten years from now, so I wondered in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aircraft-carriers-iii.t7304/page-132#post-420458
what would the RN do around 2020 if it then had to go into something like
was, and I think I can understand arguments for obtaining something else than two QEs (at the expense of scrapping the HMS Ocean etc.) while keeping the Albions;
for example four units of something-like-Juan-Carlos-I (instead of 2 QEs and 2 Albions)
LOL it's just what could've been done differently, of course ... what will actually happen around 2020:
'capability gap' (I think this is the Politically Correct expression) and waiting for F-35Bs
(neither is a problem in the middle of Europe
When the Sea Harrier entered service the sqns were commissioned at a rate of one per year. All the training for the Lightning force is being done now in the US jointly between US and UK personnel. If the UK Government wanted a second sqn commissioned in 2020 they could speed up the orders now and arrange for more pilots and ground crew to enter the training pipeline sooner rather than later. The RN has a long tradition of rising to the occasion when under pressure and peacetime estimates of how long a given weapon system will take to be available for service are more to do with money than anything else. Even the QECs themselves have been delayed from entering service on time (2012 originally!) for purely financial reasons. When their is a perceived need, the money taps are opened and things happen a lot quicker.
Jura The idiot
General
today in the English Channel:
Jura The idiot
General
now I see more clearly what you meant in the recent series
thanks