Aircraft Carriers III

FORBIN said:

Yep versatile for compensated retirement of Ocean but less specialized CV it is the problem... planned for host 500 troops, Ocean 800 so necessary 2 Bulwark in service, now 1 in reserve, not ready.

A full RM Cdo i have 700 Troops ofc can be hosted sure by Ocean, Albion can in surge, 705 Troops, maybe QE also in surge capacity for some days max about a week before landing operations not long deployment with troops aboard.
In surge an AA Ships can in average host about 1/3 of troops in more than normaly, surely a San Antonio can host up to 1000 troops.

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Obi Wan Russell said:

As the Falklands War and other later operations proved, when deploying in combat the peacetime rules for how many troops can be embarked aboard any given ship go out the window. I have no doubt the QECs can carry as many troops as Ocean can and probably more.

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Charles De Gaulle can hosted up to 1500 troops but as for QE without or almost aircrafts.
Clemenceau was used in 08/1991 for transport helos and some troops in the Gulf, in an LHD configuration a second possible configuration not improvised.

When i say, i have read 500 troops for QE i mean with an inferior but decent CAW saying 20 - 30 aircrafts after with a small CAW as you say make sense at less as the Ocean 800 or 1000+ troops.

FORBIN said:

Charles De Gaulle can hosted up to 1500 troops but as for QE without or almost aircrafts.
Clemenceau was used in 08/1991 for transport helos and some troops in the Gulf, in an LHD configuration a second possible configuration not improvised.

When i say, i have read 500 troops for QE i mean with an inferior but decent CAW saying 20 - 30 aircrafts after with a small CAW as you say make sense at less as the Ocean 800 or 1000+ troops.

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I have read so many conflicting estimates of how many troops they can carry I take official figures with a pinch of salt. Yes the air group would be reduced for such an operation but they will normally operate with a smaller air group tha max capacity anyway. I'd imagine on an amphibious mission the ship woul have a single sqn of 12 Lightnings, 6 Merlin ASW, 4 Merlin AEW (i.e. the backbone of an air group) plus a sqn of 8 Merlin HC4s and at least 4 Chinooks. Once the troops have moved ashore, the troop carrying choppers will mostly go with them, only returning to the ship to refuel (they can also refuel aboard the LPDs and LSDs) and for maintenance (which can also be done aboard the RFAs). After this stage one or two extra Lightning sqns can be flown out to the ship and begin operations thereafter if needed. HMS Hermes did this in 1982, deploying down south with a mixed air group of 12 Sea Harriers, 9Sea King HAS2s, and at least 9 Sea King HC4s. After the landings at San Carlos the HC4s deployed ashore (refuelling from LPDs in the landing area) and Hermes received reinforcements of 4 Sea Harriers of 809NAS and 8 Harrier GR3s from 1(f) sqn RAF.

CVF operations are often compared to the preceding Invincibles, but in fact the RN has more accurately taken inspiration from the way Hermes was used in 1962. The Invincibles were proven to be too small for the RN's needs back then but we were saddled with them for the next thirty years. The QECs are truly a modern day replacement for the capability that Hermes brought to the table, and that is the mindset at work here. They are not and never were a poor man's Nimitz, nor an overgrown Invincible or an LHA on steroids. They are true multi role carriers, built knowing the politicians will always ask for more, they can and will do it!

Obi Wan Russell said:

... They are true multi role carriers, built knowing the politicians will always ask for more, they can and will do it!View attachment 33067 View attachment 33068

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still

Jura said:

I don't like the idea of supercarrier–of–all–trades:

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Jura said:

... how they try to sell the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers:

(comes from some meeting this August:

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)

you may note "Embarked Force" (in middle-top); I've read about the plan for two Companies (of Royal Marines, I suppose) plus helicopters' support in "amphibious configuration" ... are they serious?

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but that's me
I of course with good luck to the Royal Navy

We'd certainly like to have one ship type for each role, but the political reality is the politicians won't fund them so you have to make what you do get capable of doing whatever it's asked to do. Even the Americans used the Kitty Hawk as an improvised LPH during the Gulf War:

Obi Wan Kitty Hawk did not participate in the Gulf War in '91. That photo is of USS America as described below.

On 13 September [1994], less than two weeks after leaving the shipyard, America was in the Atlantic heading for Haiti in support of Operation Uphold Democracy. As the world focused on the situation in Haiti, America carried not her normal air wing, but elements of the Joint Special Operations Command and helicopters of the 160th Army Special Aviation Regiment. Arriving at VooDoo Station on 17 September, word was received the next day to execute the planned invasion of Haiti that evening. However 45 minutes after being issued, the order was cancelled by President Clinton.

For the next 30 days, America experienced possibly the most unique situation in her history. More than 2,000 Army, Air force and Marine Corps special forces troops, and helicopters, melded together. During the ensuing month, 400 sorties were launched with a 96% completion rate. Released on 18 October, America was back in familiar Norfolk four days later.

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A U.S. Army Sikorsky UH-60A Black Hawk helicopters on deck of the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69). Dwight D. Eisenhowerdisembarked its Carrier Air Wing 3 (CVW-3) at Norfolk, Virginia (USA), and loaded 2.000 U.S. Army soldiers and 58 helicopters of the 10th Mountain Division to take part in "Operation Uphold Democracy" in Haiti. The carrier departed Norfolk on 14 September 1994 and reached the waters off Haiti three days later. Following successful negotiations with Haiti's military junta, the troops were landed without resistance on 19 September.

Date September 1994
Source U.S. Navy photo

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from the

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available at

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Author USN

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Eisenhower departs Norfolk for Operation Uphold Democracy in 1994.

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Obi Wan Russell said:

We'd certainly like to have one ship type for each role, but the political reality is the politicians won't fund them so you have to make what you do get capable of doing whatever it's asked to do. Even the Americans used the Kitty Hawk as an improvised LPH during the Gulf War:View attachment 33069

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yeah (EDIT actually now I noticed bd popeye's post and it appears the picture you posted is of the America off Haiti )
but anyway in ten years from now

(the presentation I quoted in the post right above says
"2026 Full Operating Capability (Carrier Enabled Power projection)" for the Queen Elizabeth, it's in slide #6)

the threats from shore will be much higher than now, I guess, so inserting so many troops using helicopters with about one hundred nm combat radius could be, ehm, risky ... but I'm guessing you hope in obtaining Ospreys until then, right?

In 1991 Kitty Hawk was in the shipyard in Philadelphia under going SLEP.

The "Battle Cat" began 1987 with a farewell to San Diego. On January 3rd the ship departed her homeport of 25 years and set out on a six-month world cruise. During the world cruise, the Kitty Hawk and CVW-9 crewmen again showed their commitment to safety by conducting a third fatality-free deployment. She spent 106 consecutive days on station in the Indian Ocean and arrived to Philadelphia Naval Shipyard on July 3.

Six months later, she began a Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) overhaul. USS Kitty Hawk emerged from the yards on March 29, 1991, her deck modified to accommodate the F/A-18 Hornet. The overhaul was estimated to have added 20 years of service to the life of the ship. The ship departed Philadelphia Naval Ship Yard on July 30.

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bd popeye said:

Obi Wan Kitty hawk did not participate in the Gulf War in '91. That photo is of USS America as described below.

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My apologies I did not mean the '91 war, bit of a Brain fart there! I knew it was a post 9-11 operation but couldn't remember which specific one it was That area has been in a state of war or near war since 1980 and hasn't really cooled off properly even now.

bd popeye said:

Obi Wan Kitty Hawk did not participate in the Gulf War in '91. That photo is of USS America as described below.

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Good ! also Kitty Hawk in 2001 used as helo carrier for SF etc... and possible host 2000 troops, more ?

In October 2001, Kitty Hawk deployed to the North Arabian Sea for the beginning of

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. The ship served as an afloat forward staging base for the

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,

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with a reduced air wing.

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If you have a day some pics Master Popeye

Jura said:

yeah (EDIT actually now I noticed bd popeye's post and it appears the picture you posted is of the America off Haiti )
but anyway in ten years from now

(the presentation I quoted in the post right above says
"2026 Full Operating Capability (Carrier Enabled Power projection)" for the Queen Elizabeth, it's in slide #6)

the threats from shore will be much higher than now, I guess, so inserting so many troops using helicopters with about one hundred nm combat radius could be, ehm, risky ... but I'm guessing you hope in obtaining Ospreys until then, right?

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In order to land the troops by helicopter you only have to be that close to shore for a short period (24 hours?) after which the CVF would pull back to a safer distance and concentrate on strike and air defence missions, covering the LPDs and LSDs which would be close off shore. Ospreys are certainly on the Navy's Christmas list but nobody is holding their breaths about that. We have Merlin HC4s and Chinooks, and for the next couple of decades that's what we'll have to work with. When the QEC is deploying the troops by helicopter Air defence will be handled by a mixture of the 12 F-35Bs aboard and a couple of T45s escorting the carrier. I'd regard the situation as well in hand under the circumstances. No amphibious landing in wartime will be 100% safe, it will always be a calculated risk.