Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

The story is a non story written by someone who knows nothing about defence matters. Before this announcement the plan was to build two aircraft carriers and an initial buy of about 50 or 60 F-35Bs. Then this story comes out and... NOTHING has changed. Except the Navy has apparently pulled off a masterstroke of spin by sacrificing nothing and yet making it look like they have made a mjor sacrifice! Keeps the treasury happy! It was alsways intended to use the CVFs in the LPH role from time to time. Just as this capability was included in the Invincible class. Heck even the USN's CV/CVN force has this capability (I recall Kitty Hawk acting as a mega LPH in the Gulf war...) The only specific equipment aboard the CVFs to suit them to F-35B operation is the ski jump, which is a simple and cheap steel construction, and omitting it from HMS Prince of Wales has not been mentioned, nor suggested. As to borrowing a carrier off the French, as they only have one to start with and it is nuclear powered (it's reactor is a different design to those on RN subs), this idea is a non starter. Current financial problems will not last forever, and to make sacrifices in ten years time to rectify todays problems makes no sense. Take this story with a pinch of salt:coffee:

I'd knew I'd shake you two gents out of your slumber with that story. I found this story at mp.net.

What a crock. A story written by the "Navally Challenged".

Obi Wan.. When the current "financial crisis" eases in the UK do you feel that MoD will attempt to purchase more aircrfat for the CVFs? Or could the possibly keep the Harriers in service a little longer? I realize they have been around for 35+ years. Another thought..Will some agreement between the MoD and US DoD bring USMC F-35Bs on the CVF's from time to time for deployments?? Or perhaps more often than that?? Maybe a little basing of USMC F-35s in the UK?

bd popeye said:

I'd knew I'd shake you two gents out of your slumber with that story. I found this story at mp.net.

What a crock. A story written by the "Navally Challenged".

Obi Wan.. When the current "financial crisis" eases in the UK do you feel that MoD will attempt to purchase more aircrfat for the CVFs? Or could the possibly keep the Harriers in service a little longer? I realize they have been around for 35+ years. Another thought..Will some agreement between the MoD and US DoD bring USMC F-35Bs on the CVF's from time to time for deployments?? Or perhaps more often than that?? Maybe a little basing of USMC F-35s in the UK?

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The plan was always for the RN to have one CVF as the 'ready alert' carrier available at all times, with the second available for deployment soon after if needed. Just as we do now with Lusty and Ark. The JFH sqns currently operate around 9 aircraft, this will increase to 12 when the lightnings enter service. So two FAA sqns of 12 gives an air group of 24 FJs, with room for another (RAF)sqn to deploy when needed. Additionally the air group will include a sqn of six Merlins for ASW/SAR and three to four AEW types (currently Sea King ASaC7, possibly a converted Merlin model in the 2020s). There will definately be room for a USMC sqn aboard (I prefer this to the RAF, who will probably find something better for their sqns to do most of the time). So we have the potential for a truly mixed, flexible and varied strike force on the decks of the Carriers. Generating an air group for the second carrier will not be a big problem either, there will be a second AEW sqn available, an ASW sqn, and the FJ force can be a mix of USMC/RAF/Spanish Navy/Italian Navy as avaiable, depending on the composition of the task force.

Alternatively, the second carrier can be deployed in the 'mega-LPH' role, onboard which anything from Chinooks and Ospreys to Apaches can be deployed, types which can be provided by more than just the UK. Imagine a joint task force headed by a couple of USN Carrier strike groups and an RN CVF strike group, a mix of other Nation's FFs and DDGs and an Amphibious group headed by a mix of Wasp class LHDs, The Spanish JC1 and a CVF with a mix of helos and USMC F-35Bs (concentrated on the CVF because of the ski jump, the cuisine and the ahem, enhanced relaxation facilities aboard RN ships) leaving the USN ships to concetrate on the helos and troops. I think the future is still bright, and joint operations are still the way forward. We all need to bring complementary capabilities to the table, and I believe we shall do just that.

Imagine a joint task force headed by a couple of USN Carrier strike groups and an RN CVF strike group, a mix of other Nation's FFs and DDGs and an Amphibious group headed by a mix of Wasp class LHDs, The Spanish JC1 and a CVF with a mix of helos and USMC F-35Bs (concentrated on the CVF because of the ski jump, the cuisine and the ahem, enhanced relaxation facilities aboard RN ships) leaving the USN ships to concetrate on the helos and troops.

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Nice! Or.. One RN CVF in CV form...One USN America class LHA packing 30 JSF and support helos and Ospreys.. and one or two Nimitz class CVN strike groups...

bd popeye said:

Nice! Or.. One RN CVF in CV form...One USN America class LHA packing 30 JSF and support helos and Ospreys.. and one or two Nimitz class CVN strike groups.

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A world class-tag team!

Obi Wan has hit the nail on the head. What a ridiculous article! If anything it seems to indicate that the carriers are safe, because all that's being done is examining ways to delay purchasing a number of the F-35s. Though of course we've had the contract discussion before so we knew the girls were safe.

Mr T said:

A world class-tag team!

Obi Wan has hit the nail on the head. What a ridiculous article! If anything it seems to indicate that the carriers are safe, because all that's being done is examining ways to delay purchasing a number of the F-35s. Though of course we've had the contract discussion before so we knew the girls were safe.

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The carriers have always been advertised as flexible power projection platforms, the F-35s are just one of the weapon systems they can deploy. There will be a transitional period whilst the Lightnings are introduced into service, when the Harriers will be retained and operated side by side, much as the type 45 Destroyers will operate alongside the type 42s for a few years yet. The two Naval Harrier sqns (800NAS and 801NAS, which is due to stand up next year) will convert to the Lightning first, freeing up all the remaining Harrier GR9s for the RAF, which should be better placed to eke out the remaining airframe lives of the total fleet. We have over 70 GR9s inservice now, so the pool of airframes can have their hours used sparingly. Remember the CVFs will also be capable of deploying ASW Merlins, AEW helos, Apaches, FLynx, Chinooks... just about anything rotary wing in the inventory. Four acres of sovreign British territory that can go anywhere in the world without having to worry about Host Nation Support.

I just saw this fantastic photo of the JMSDF ship Hyuga DDH 181 from navy.mil.

Some nations talk about having aircraft carriers..while other have them...

SAGAMI BAY, Japan (Oct. 21, 2009) Two SH-60K Sea Hawk helicopters lift off from the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force helicopter destroyer JS Hyuga (DDH 181) during a rehearsal for the 2009 fleet review. More than 8,000 civilians toured selected ships and viewed the rehearsal. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Dominique Pineiro/Released)

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The flight deck looks a lot barren to me..

More BS about the QE2 class CVF by another no nothing reporter.

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One of Britain's new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under cost-cutting plans being considered by the Ministry of Defence. India has lodged a firm expression of interest, the Observer has learned.
The sale of one of the two 65,000-tonne vessels would leave the Royal Navy with a single carrier and could force Britain to borrow from the French fleet, which itself has only one carrier and is reluctant to build more. Last summer the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, proposed to Gordon Brown that the two navies co-ordinate maintenance and refitting so that one was at sea at all times.
According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of a sale as part of the strategic defence review that will start early next year and is expected to result in savage cuts.
The carrier programme has already been delayed by two years to push back spending commitments, which itself will end up costing the taxpayer more in the long run. BAE Systems began work in July on HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is due to come into service in 2016. Preparatory work on the Prince of Wales, due for launch in 2018, has also started. The two carriers will replace the ageing Invincible class and are three times the size.
There were fears that the government could scrap one altogether. But it is understood that the financial penalties would be prohibitive. About 10,000 jobs in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Fife and Glasgow depend on the orders.

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Regarding the US not selling it's CV's, the Forrestal was offered to Brazil essentially for free and they turned it down. They could not begin to staff it, and it was far too large for the 25 aircraft airwing Brazil can afford. Keep in mind a ship like the Forrestal costs over $1 billion per year to operate and maintain, and I adjusting the figure for a Brazilian pay scale. That is just for the ship. The airwing is extra.
Considering how hammered most USN CV's are when they are decommissioned, I think India would be wise to buy a new ship. No offense Popeye, but I know how much old plumbing and disconnected electrical runs there are in these old ships, banged up lockers and berthing spaces, tempermental old boilers, cranky evaporators, worn out shaft bearings, rusty heads and clogged plumbing. It may look nice with fresh paint on it, but there are thousands of miles of pipes and electrical runs inside that are fifty years old.

bd popeye said:

More BS about the QE2 class CVF by another no nothing reporter.

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There's a defence review coming up after the next election (May 2010) and everyone is positioning themselves to preserve their own patch. This is often done by giving 'scare stories' to the press so that there is a public backlash against particular measures. The RAF (or rather their fanboys) have put out another scare story about massive job losses, base closures and axing both the Harrier and Tornado fleets (including the GR4s) It's all fantasy at the moment, nothing has been decided but when extreme MOD proposals are waved under thenoses of bored journos they become fact. Within the MOD however extreme scenarios are dreamed up all the time in order to show ministers how stupid a particular line of thinking is. Gideon Osbourne (probably the next Chancellor, and like most of his predecessors of both parties, a complete idiot regarding money) was making a lot of noise about defence cuts only a few months ago, but has backed off after a quiet word in his ear from the likes of Liam Fox (Tory defence spokesman) who actually understand the realities of the situation. Likewise the Lib Dems were also making noises about cutting the carriers until the MP for Portsmouth (a Lib Dem) had a word with them about how cancellation would mean he and many others in the area would get the Spanish Archer at the election.

If there are cuts to be made, the British Army of the Rhine is a good candidate, after all the cold war ended in 91 so what are they still doing there? Also the overseas aid department could be safely chopped, as most of it's money (it's budget rivals the MOD!) goes straight into the pockets of dictators and their cronies, and the work it claims to do is done better by NGOs anyway. And why are we giving money to others when everyone is loudly stating we don't have enough for ourselves?