Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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If that does end up happening (I doubt it will, although I can see the Hornet/other aircraft deal going through) Russia will have no one to blame but itself. The way that they have treated India on the Gorshkov deal is really quite astounding.
Russian behaviour towards its own clients has bordered on the brutish in just the last couple years, never mind towards those the Russians really don't like. Right now, the only reason that Russia has not been practically drummed out of the international arms market is because China is either unready or unwilling to market its own most advanced armaments and equipment. In five or ten years, that may take a sudden change.
It's almost shocking that anyone would take any suggestion that Kitty Hawk might be transferred to a foreign navy seriously. She's too old, and her machinery is in quite poor condition. The only USN carrier that is in any condition to render further useful service is John F. Kennedy, gathering barnacles on her hull in the James.
There is no serious prospect of any USN carrier, no matter how old, going into foreign service. And yet the notion is so intriguing and the potential ramifications of said so deliciously tantalizing, that one cannot help but fantasize a little as to what might transpire, geopolitically, if JFK and a deck-load of SuperHornets were to home port in Karwar...
It's almost shocking that anyone would take any suggestion that Kitty Hawk might be transferred to a foreign navy seriously. She's too old, and her machinery is in quite poor condition. The only USN carrier that is in any condition to render further useful service is John F. Kennedy, gathering barnacles on her hull in the James.
There is no serious prospect of any USN carrier, no matter how old, going into foreign service. And yet the notion is so intriguing and the potential ramifications of said so deliciously tantalizing, that one cannot help but fantasize a little as to what might transpire, geopolitically, if JFK and a deck-load of SuperHornets were to home port in Karwar...
mehdi
Junior Member
bd popeye I have one question for you. Let's assume a hypothetical future in which the next US President wants to build stronger ties with India decides to sell or give away the Kitty Hawk Aircraft Carrier in a deal e.g. with the purchase of F/18Hornets. In this situation according to what you know doesn't the Kitty Hawk structural integrity pose problem, as for me this Carrier is quite old. So what can you tell me about the Kitty Hawk's is it in a relatively good shape or it must be scrapped.
Sounds to me like the Indians are making full use of the Kitty Hawk rumours to apply counter pressure on the Russians who are trying to crowbar another couple of Billion dollars out of the Indians for the Gorshkov, ie the Russians say "Give us more money or you won't get your carrier; face it you have no other choice!" (Laughs menacingly)
Indian reply: "No other choice? Dubya has just offered us a super carrier for free if we ditch you and the second rate migs and buy Rhinos. We had a deal. You are trying to welsh on it. Keep to what we agreed or we go elswhere and you can whistle for your money, Ivan." (Smug grins all round on the Indian side)
Kitty Hawks hull age isn't the problem with her, as hulls tend to last a lot longer than the rest of the ship. The machinery is an issue, but she has been SLEPped (Service Life Extension Program) and practically all the 'moving parts' within the ship were renewed at that time. So one should think of her as effectively dating from the time of the refit rather than from the early sixties.
Should this all drag on for too long the Indians may have to look at replacing the Viraat before either option can be realised and the 'third way' to preserve Indian Naval Aviation 'in being' would be to buy HMS Invincible from the UK (since the Indian Sea Harriers are being modernised for further service anyway) and she would alow India to reach it's goal of a 3 carrier fleet a lot sooner, Gorshkov/Kitty Hawk, IAC1 Vikrant and Invincible all in service by the middle of the next decade, with IAC2 replacing Invincible in the 2020s and IAC3 replacing Gorshkov a few years later. Just a thought...
Indian reply: "No other choice? Dubya has just offered us a super carrier for free if we ditch you and the second rate migs and buy Rhinos. We had a deal. You are trying to welsh on it. Keep to what we agreed or we go elswhere and you can whistle for your money, Ivan." (Smug grins all round on the Indian side)
Kitty Hawks hull age isn't the problem with her, as hulls tend to last a lot longer than the rest of the ship. The machinery is an issue, but she has been SLEPped (Service Life Extension Program) and practically all the 'moving parts' within the ship were renewed at that time. So one should think of her as effectively dating from the time of the refit rather than from the early sixties.
Should this all drag on for too long the Indians may have to look at replacing the Viraat before either option can be realised and the 'third way' to preserve Indian Naval Aviation 'in being' would be to buy HMS Invincible from the UK (since the Indian Sea Harriers are being modernised for further service anyway) and she would alow India to reach it's goal of a 3 carrier fleet a lot sooner, Gorshkov/Kitty Hawk, IAC1 Vikrant and Invincible all in service by the middle of the next decade, with IAC2 replacing Invincible in the 2020s and IAC3 replacing Gorshkov a few years later. Just a thought...
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Excellent discussion gents!
Actually the USS Kitty Hawk seems to be in good condition considering how many years she has been in service. Nearly 47. She is well maintained by the shipyard in Yokosuka. She has made all her commitments since 2003. She did suffer from some serious engineering problems in 2000-2002 time frame.
I'm not sure what the USN will do with her once retired. She may be laid up in reserve or sunk. Ship breakers in the US do not like to scrap old USN ships. It cost more than the salvageable material is worth and there are serious enviromental concerns. Remember that the USN has 6 CVs laid up out of comission. The only one of these that could be returned to service is the John F Kennedy. And the JFK was beset with engineering problems before she was decomissioned. Not to mention that her catapults and arresting gear were de-certified by the very navy she served. Shameful that the USN allowed this ship to deteroiate.
Humm..I agree Obi Wan. Sounds like a little economic gamemanship going on here by the Indians.
Actually the USS Kitty Hawk seems to be in good condition considering how many years she has been in service. Nearly 47. She is well maintained by the shipyard in Yokosuka. She has made all her commitments since 2003. She did suffer from some serious engineering problems in 2000-2002 time frame.
I'm not sure what the USN will do with her once retired. She may be laid up in reserve or sunk. Ship breakers in the US do not like to scrap old USN ships. It cost more than the salvageable material is worth and there are serious enviromental concerns. Remember that the USN has 6 CVs laid up out of comission. The only one of these that could be returned to service is the John F Kennedy. And the JFK was beset with engineering problems before she was decomissioned. Not to mention that her catapults and arresting gear were de-certified by the very navy she served. Shameful that the USN allowed this ship to deteroiate.
Humm
..I agree Obi Wan. Sounds like a little economic gamemanship going on here by the Indians.
sidewinder
New Member
Robert gates arrives in india withh kitty hawk offer
Enter the United States. According to numerous sources inside India, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates visits New Delhi late in February (provided his Tuesday Potomac Primary Day broken shoulder does not alter his itinerary) he will be carrying a signed letter from U.S. President George W. Bush offering a better deal for India than the one they have been struggling to get out of Moscow for four years now. The Indian Navy will reportedly be offered the soon-to-be decommissioned USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) aircraft carrier for free--provided the Indian Navy will agree to purchase 65 of the newest model Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be operated off of it.
If true--and if New Delhi accepts--this can do more than just sink the Russian carrier deal and the MiG-29K contract. The Indian Air Force (IAF) are deep in the throes of a tender to purchase almost 200 new fighter aircraft, with Boeing and RSK-MiG both in the field of six contenders. An order of 200 fighter airplanes is unheard of--larger than any such export sale in more than 20 years. In an era where sales of 12, 20, or 40 fighters are more common, this is the PowerBall Lotto of export competitions.
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Enter the United States. According to numerous sources inside India, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates visits New Delhi late in February (provided his Tuesday Potomac Primary Day broken shoulder does not alter his itinerary) he will be carrying a signed letter from U.S. President George W. Bush offering a better deal for India than the one they have been struggling to get out of Moscow for four years now. The Indian Navy will reportedly be offered the soon-to-be decommissioned USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) aircraft carrier for free--provided the Indian Navy will agree to purchase 65 of the newest model Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be operated off of it.
If true--and if New Delhi accepts--this can do more than just sink the Russian carrier deal and the MiG-29K contract. The Indian Air Force (IAF) are deep in the throes of a tender to purchase almost 200 new fighter aircraft, with Boeing and RSK-MiG both in the field of six contenders. An order of 200 fighter airplanes is unheard of--larger than any such export sale in more than 20 years. In an era where sales of 12, 20, or 40 fighters are more common, this is the PowerBall Lotto of export competitions.
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Re: Robert gates arrives in india withh kitty hawk offer
Whoa! :O Now that would be quite a deal...
But so far its just speculation (or a figment of that author's imagination) as far as im concerned as no other news agency has reported on that yet.
I will wait for more sources and its confirmation before ill believe it...
Whoa! :O Now that would be quite a deal...
But so far its just speculation (or a figment of that author's imagination) as far as im concerned as no other news agency has reported on that yet.
I will wait for more sources and its confirmation before ill believe it...
Re: Robert gates arrives in india withh kitty hawk offer
If this deal does go down, then it will be an absolute blockbuster. It will majorly affect that balance of power in Asia (especially if the Indians turn to the US for the mentioned fighter deal which would make sense if the US gives India the Kitty Hawk). Swooping in and stealing India's business from Russia would cause a major warming in the US-India strategic relationship which would be the main motivation for this deal on the US side.
Of course as I said earlier and as I always say about huge arms deals like this, I'll believe it when I see it. All to often these turn out to be the figment of someone's imagination or they get watered down or killed when they are drawn out over long periods of time.
If this deal does go down, then it will be an absolute blockbuster. It will majorly affect that balance of power in Asia (especially if the Indians turn to the US for the mentioned fighter deal which would make sense if the US gives India the Kitty Hawk). Swooping in and stealing India's business from Russia would cause a major warming in the US-India strategic relationship which would be the main motivation for this deal on the US side.
Of course as I said earlier and as I always say about huge arms deals like this, I'll believe it when I see it. All to often these turn out to be the figment of someone's imagination or they get watered down or killed when they are drawn out over long periods of time.
Now with all these talks about the arms sales to india. Hypotheticlay assuming the IN would get the KH and the F-18s, at the end of the next decade she will have one CATOBAR and two (indigenous) STOBAR carriers. It also seems the Sea Harriers will be retired rather soon. If the Mig deal will then be killed, can / will F-18s operate from Vikrant class carriers?
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