thunderchief
Senior Member
I would agree , after all Kiev-class was supposed to handle Yak-38s .
Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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I would agree , after all Kiev-class was supposed to handle Yak-38s .
Actually there are seven escorts shown for the two Indian carriers.
As I said, the shtil missile is a decent missile out to 45-50km. With seven escorts, the formation has a total of 10 single arm launchers to fire them, which can put out a large number of missile for defense. They also have a decent defense in depth because the all three Delhi class DDGs have 32 VLS Barak I missiles and another 16 for the Viraat. And then the SA_16s on the Talwar frigates.
Add to that their numerous CIWS gun fire and they have a very decent air defense. Though admittedly their single arm launchers are a weakness, particularly for any large saturation attack.
However, that is what the Kolkatas will remedy. They will end up with 6-7 Kolkatas that carry 64 VLS cells for the Barak 8 missiles too.
As it is, the Indians have put together a very decent, and very respectable combined task force.
Their building plans right niow for the Shivalik FFGs, their new ASW FFGs, and their Kolkatas will address most of the areas of conern for the future.
Agreed that it is not good for morale to have ships deployed at sea during Christmas season, especially when there are no clear possibilities of hostilities in the designated fleet/flotilla operational areas. However, it is a known fact that the enemy usually attacks when your guard is down. I tend to agree with the retired USN Captain's response to the security issue concerning ships concentration in home ports. Nevertheless, I am quite certain the US, China, Japan and a few others would have high-tech security (all aspects of technology available) manned by qualified and well-trained personnel to protect their naval assets.
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I just took a close look at that pic, and they appear to be just that...someone copied them, enlarged them, and then pasted them in on this side of the formation...clearly a PS'ed copy of the earlier picture we saw come out.
I will take that pic out of my post. Thanks, good catch.
It is clear however, that there are both a Delhi DDG and a Talwar FFG for both carriers. Pictures nine and ten show the two escorts outboard of each carrier. In addition, there is another Delhi (which means all three of their Delhi DDGs are there) and another Talwar...and finally, a fourth FFG which I cannot make out behind the AOR.
One key difference some commentators have noted between the PLAN and IN approach in carrier development is that the PLAN focused more on developing support elements first (logistics and escorts) prior to carrier commissioning, while the IN prioritised carrier commissioning over completing support elements.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
The Indian Navy has numerous decent frigates and destroyers, as well as decent AOR capabilities.
They have operated carriers for fifty years.
There problem is that the development of the Project 15A Kolkatas went so far awry, that they got the new carrier before they got the new stronger anti-air DDGs...which has also put the follow on Project 15B vessels behind.
The Indian Navy's biggest problem however, IMHO is simply project management.
They are constantly changing the specifications and requirements for their vessels to the point of driving the actual construction of the vessels further and further out while they redesign...and then when they do start building, they constantly face issues with getting parts/modules from their suppliers (particularly off shore suppliers) to the fabrication site at the proper time, which holds up the project while they wait.
Well escort and logistic "capability" is all relative, and the question we have to ask is whether a nation's escorts are up to global standards and also whether global standards are necessary for the carriers missions.
In this case, I think there is no doubt that while the INs present escort fleet is formidable, it's air defence capability in particular is sorely, and dramatically lacking.
They won't even have a true long range SAM even after barak 8 comes online because its range is only 70km. They don't have any VLS launched medium or long range SAMs, and while the barak is a VLS SAM, it is a point defence weapon not an area air defence weapon by any stretch of the imagination.
If we had to compare the PLAN with the IN in terms of escorts, I think it goes without saying that the PLAN have built up a larger supply of modern and more globally competitive escorts in the form of significant numbers of 054A and 052C, both of which (in terms of air defence) actually outstrip the INs current in service escorts by a noticeable margin in the case of 054A, and a wide margin in terms of 052C, not only due to virtue of VLS, but also due to the superiority of missile range which is probably the most fundamental metric you want for a CVBG escort picket. And this is ignoring all the other older destroyers like 052B and sovremenny who themselves are equipped with the same shtil air defence suites as the INs current escorts (or slightly better, in 051Cs case).
Therefore the question we should ask now, is whether the IN needed a more globally competitive escort fleet at the time Vikramditya entered service by now, and following that, whether they should have instead invested more into escorts first before procuring another aircraft carrier.
For the second part of the question, I'll say the IN was right in buying Vikramditya. They were intent on gaining a two carrier force, virtually no matter the cost. For the first part of the question, we have to ask what missions the IN will seek to undertake. Obviously it's main foe is pakistan, but also possibly china. Against pakistan, it's current and foreseeable escort fleet may be acceptable. Against china, it obviously fares less favourably, depending on where such a hypothetical conflict occurs.
Personally I think the IN would have been in a better position had they sought VLS shtils for their shivaliks and talwars, and also the photo would've been in a much better position if their building-commissioning schedule was faster than the decade long fiascos they tend to be. That is possibly the greatest short to medium term hindrance I see for the IN. They simply can't seem to build ships faster. Even once they get their three kolkatas in service in the next few years, at this stage there is nothing to suggest the project 15B and Project 15A destroyer and frigate won't significantly cut down the construction time. And I am talking china, US, Japan, Korea, Western Europe construction-commissioning speed, like 2 years from launch to commission... and not 7-8 years (I'm looking at you, kolkata and Shivalik classes )
In this case, I think there is no doubt that while the INs present escort fleet is formidable, it's air defence capability in particular is sorely, and dramatically lacking.
They won't even have a true long range SAM even after barak 8 comes online because its range is only 70km. They don't have any VLS launched medium or long range SAMs, and while the barak is a VLS SAM, it is a point defence weapon not an area air defence weapon by any stretch of the imagination.
If we had to compare the PLAN with the IN in terms of escorts, I think it goes without saying that the PLAN have built up a larger supply of modern and more globally competitive escorts in the form of significant numbers of 054A and 052C, both of which (in terms of air defence) actually outstrip the INs current in service escorts by a noticeable margin in the case of 054A, and a wide margin in terms of 052C, not only due to virtue of VLS, but also due to the superiority of missile range which is probably the most fundamental metric you want for a CVBG escort picket. And this is ignoring all the other older destroyers like 052B and sovremenny who themselves are equipped with the same shtil air defence suites as the INs current escorts (or slightly better, in 051Cs case).
Therefore the question we should ask now, is whether the IN needed a more globally competitive escort fleet at the time Vikramditya entered service by now, and following that, whether they should have instead invested more into escorts first before procuring another aircraft carrier.
For the second part of the question, I'll say the IN was right in buying Vikramditya. They were intent on gaining a two carrier force, virtually no matter the cost. For the first part of the question, we have to ask what missions the IN will seek to undertake. Obviously it's main foe is pakistan, but also possibly china. Against pakistan, it's current and foreseeable escort fleet may be acceptable. Against china, it obviously fares less favourably, depending on where such a hypothetical conflict occurs.
Personally I think the IN would have been in a better position had they sought VLS shtils for their shivaliks and talwars, and also the photo would've been in a much better position if their building-commissioning schedule was faster than the decade long fiascos they tend to be. That is possibly the greatest short to medium term hindrance I see for the IN. They simply can't seem to build ships faster. Even once they get their three kolkatas in service in the next few years, at this stage there is nothing to suggest the project 15B and Project 15A destroyer and frigate won't significantly cut down the construction time. And I am talking china, US, Japan, Korea, Western Europe construction-commissioning speed, like 2 years from launch to commission... and not 7-8 years (I'm looking at you, kolkata and Shivalik classes )
kwaigonegin
Colonel
Imagined if the Vik actually got delivered like planned! which I believe was 2011 maybe earlier?! (someone correct me pls).. she would've been sailing for many years w/o good AD escorts which would be a cardinal sin in any CVBG!!!. Again like you said that's just bad planning and project management.
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