Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Actually , Graf Zeppelin was a quite good ship , maybe not as good as Essex class but still solid . It could have served in same role as Liaoning/Varyag , i.e. for learning and training . Unfortunately , Soviets at that time decided not to break the treaty (there would be consequences in other matters ) so things ended as they ended .

No, it was an abysmal ship, very poorly designed and over engineered. Compared to contemporary ijn carrier Taiho, it was the same displacement, had 30% more engine power but was 2 knots slower, carried 40% less aircraft than the Taiho yet was less well armored and protected against air attack than the Taiho. It had the same AAA battery as Taiho but situated them much more poorly, in a way that would expose aircraft on deck to serious blast damage.

Japanese carriers 2/3 its size could carry a larger airwing and launch a more powerful airstrike, and had AA batteries matching or exceeding GZ's.

Beside comparing poorly point for point, GZ additionally were burdened with a heavy and useless antiship battery for which it carried only half the needed gun crew. Anachronistically heavily armored against surface gunfire but lightly protected again air attacks. It's elaborate trolley catapult system would almost certainly be unreliable and difficult to service in actual use. It is as if the Germans didn't really believe in the carrier and were trying to adulterate the carrier with as many surface warship features as they could.

All in all, gz is what might expect from a navy without any prior experience or much prior preparation in carrier design that nonetheless thought too highly of its own carrier design qualifications. It was probably the worst carrier design overall to actually have been built during WWII era.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Compared to contemporary ijn carrier Taiho:

- it was the same displacement, had 30% more engine power but was 2 knots slower

- carried 40% less aircraft than the Taiho yet was less well protected against air attack than the Taiho.

- It had the same AAA battery as Taiho but situated them much more poorly, in a way that would expose aircraft on deck to serious blast damage.

Beside comparing poorly point for point, GZ additionally

- were burdened with a heavy and useless antiship battery for which it carried only half the needed gun crew.

- heavily armored against surface gunfire but lightly protected again air attacks.

- It's elaborate trolley catapult system would almost certainly be unreliable and difficult to service in actual use.

It was probably the worst carrier design overall to actually have been built during WWII era.
All true.

Yet the Germans had to start somewhere, and so they build this vessel...but never had the chance to use her.

Launched in 1938, air group formed in 1939 (of Me-109s and Ju-887s), but then all work stopped in 1940 on Hitler's order before she completed outgfitting and before any trials could be conducted. She was towed around to several berths, used as a material depot, and kept safe from Russian attack.

Finally in May 1942, after seeing the success the English and the Japanese had with carriers, Hitler ordered work started again, only to become dis-enchanted with the Germany Navy a few months later and order a halt to work again the following January in 1943.

Thereafter she was berthed at a back-water wharf on the Parnitz River near Stettin with a 40-man custodial crew and remained there until scuttled shortly before the Red Army took the area.

Never made way under her own power. The Germans never had an opportunity to so much as learn a lesson from their inital design. Such was the pathetic life of Germany's only aircraft carrier, Graf Zeppelin, their Flugzeugträger. Launched in 1938...and then scutteled without ever being used seven years later in 1945.



01_graf_zeppelin.jpg

Graf Zepplin at Launch in 1938

Ju87-Trager-5.jpg

Modified Ju-87 Stuke for Graf Zeppelin's Air Wing

Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-B0676%2C_Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_%22Graf_Zeppelin%22.jpg

Graf Seppelin moored in 1941

Bundesarchiv_RM_25_Bild-64%2C_Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_%22Graf_Zeppelin%22%2C_Bau.jpg

Graf Seppelin in dry dock, early 1943 before final stop work

grafzeppelinn5.gif

Graf Seppelin in Stettin, before being scuttled

grafzeppelinn8.jpg

Last known picture of Graf Zeppelin in Russian custody in 1947 at Swinemünde


For anyone interested, I would recommend the book, by Stephen Burke:

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END OFF TOPIC (for me)
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Most news reports indicated the Varyag's engines were removed prior to the sale to china. Does this include the boilers or just turbines?

If the Chinese did put in entirely net sets of propulsion machinery, then I will have doubts about whether liaoning's power plant would really be all that good, or be up to the full spec of the original Kuznetsov design. Not to knock chinese engineering, but AFAIK, china has had no prior experience with heavy marine steam turbine and boiler system as powerful as those needed to drive the Liaoning to its originally designed top speed. Chinese experience with high pressure, high efficiency, high output marine steam systems would also be limited to the steam plants on a limited number of destroyers, ie much less than those of the soviet navy. If the soviets couldn't make kuznetsov's steam plant work well based on their 40 years of quite extensive experience in High performance marine steam propulsion, it would require direct evidence for me to believe the Chinese did better on far less experience.

High pressure, high efficiency, high output steam propulsion may not be state of the art in marine science, but it is nonetheless a esoteric specialty that had been difficult and troublesome to perfect for every navy that has tried it, regardless of the era, from the kriegsmarine during WWII to USN in the late 1960s. I would be highly surprised if liaoning's new plant would be trouble free.
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Well German U-Boats were enough for the allies in total throughout the war German U-Boats were responsible for the sinking of 6 aircraft carriers

In my opinion submarines even today represent the biggest threat to carriers, a single SSN can change the entire dynamics of a war, HMS Conqurer comes to mind
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Yes they did. I have a good friend whose screen name is cva66snipe, so you know what he did for a living for many years. His whole career he worked in those spaces...mainly on US conventional carriers. He was good at it, but boy does he have some stories. LOL!

Yes, snipe is another word for someone with a machinist's mate rating or MM. They keep the engine room, boilers etc going. In CVNs, SSBNs snd SSNs you have MMN or Machinist Mate Nuclear.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
High pressure, high efficiency, high output steam propulsion may not be state of the art in marine science, but it is nonetheless a esoteric specialty that had been difficult and troublesome to perfect for every navy that has tried it, regardless of the era, from the kriegsmarine during WWII to USN in the late 1960s. I would be highly surprised if liaoning's new plant would be trouble free.

Good post Chuck..and very true.

I served on 4 conventional powered CVs..Kennedy, Hancock, Midway & America

Kennedy '72 & '73... was only fours years old when I served aboard her and ran very well with little engineering problems.

Midway '73 & '74.... was 30 years old and ran ok..she did have problems with her ballast. And suffered electrical & power plant problems at times. No major problems however.

Hancock '74 & '75 was also about 30 but suffered from major engineering difficulties.. We lost power..twice.. I mean everything went off line. Electrical, catapults, steam etc etc..And the Hancock was forever having difficulties getting underway. Seems like something in the power plant was always amiss. And she had a hard time making fresh water. We were on water hours all the time. Transversing the vast Pacific Ocean for over 30 years wore her out.

America 1981 MED/IO deployment.. She was on par with the JFK except in two areas. They were always threatening us with water hours and the AC was very troublesome.

Water Hours = Occurs when the use of fresh water is limited due to mechanical difficulties. .Eat off paper plates, Navy showers or no showers. Drinking water limited. Claening was limited. But guess what? The aircraft still go off the carrier and aircraft are washed on schedule.

Nimitz 1991 WESTPAC/IO/Desert Storm.. No engineering problems what so ever. None.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Well German U-Boats were enough for the allies in total throughout the war German U-Boats were responsible for the sinking of 6 aircraft carriers

In my opinion submarines even today represent the biggest threat to carriers, a single SSN can change the entire dynamics of a war, HMS Conqurer comes to mind

Absolutely. A submarine is basically like a sniper. A force multiplier. All you need is one or two and the entire task force will be sweating bullets or avoiding the area altogether. At the very least your opponent will be using up a lot of resources in S & D operations that they will be so tied up allowing for other strategic of tactical missions to be accomplished on your side.

A submarine is one of few assets that can accomplish strategic objectives w/o ever firing a single shot. All it have to do is let the enemy know they're they and then hide! or they can blow things up first AND then hide depending on the mission objectives.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Absolutely. A submarine is basically like a sniper. A force multiplier. All you need is one or two and the entire task force will be sweating bullets or avoiding the area altogether. At the very least your opponent will be using up a lot of resources in S & D operations that they will be so tied up allowing for other strategic of tactical missions to be accomplished on your side.

A submarine is one of few assets that can accomplish strategic objectives w/o ever firing a single shot. All it have to do is let the enemy know they're they and then hide! or they can blow things up first AND then hide depending on the mission objectives.

How can IJN submarine did not do that kind of damage to USN when they have some of the most advance submarine during WWII?
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

How can IJN submarine did not do that kind of damage to USN when they have some of the most advance submarine during WWII?

They did, Imperial Japanese Submarines killed three USN carriers
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

All true.

Yet the Germans had to start somewhere, and so they build this vessel...but never had the chance to use her.

Launched in 1938, air group formed in 1939 (of Me-109s and Ju-887s), but then all work stopped in 1940 on Hitler's order before she completed outgfitting and before any trials could be conducted. She was towed around to several berths, used as a material depot, and kept safe from Russian attack.

Finally in May 1942, after seeing the success the English and the Japanese had with carriers, Hitler ordered work started again, only to become dis-enchanted with the Germany Navy a few months later and order a halt to work again the following January in 1943.

Thereafter she was berthed at a back-water wharf on the Parnitz River near Stettin with a 40-man custodial crew and remained there until scuttled shortly before the Red Army took the area.

Never made way under her own power. The Germans never had an opportunity to so much as learn a lesson from their inital design. Such was the pathetic life of Germany's only aircraft carrier, Graf Zeppelin, their Flugzeugträger. Launched in 1938...and then scutteled without ever being used seven years later in 1945.



01_graf_zeppelin.jpg

Graf Zepplin at Launch in 1938

Ju87-Trager-5.jpg

Modified Ju-87 Stuke for Graf Zeppelin's Air Wing

Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-B0676%2C_Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_%22Graf_Zeppelin%22.jpg

Graf Seppelin moored in 1941

Bundesarchiv_RM_25_Bild-64%2C_Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_%22Graf_Zeppelin%22%2C_Bau.jpg

Graf Seppelin in dry dock, early 1943 before final stop work

grafzeppelinn5.gif

Graf Seppelin in Stettin, before being scuttled

grafzeppelinn8.jpg

Last known picture of Graf Zeppelin in Russian custody in 1947 at Swinemünde


For anyone interested, I would recommend the book, by Stephen Burke:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


END OFF TOPIC (for me)
Indeed OT, but ...
One addition should be allowed: the original torpedo bomber for the ship was the Fieseler Fi-167, no doubt inspired by the Fairey Swordfish and superior to the Swordfish's "successor" the Fairey Albacore.
See
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