Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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delft

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

In this photo ^^^ you can clearly see the fuel truck forward of the Island aboard RU CV Admiral Kuznetsov . There is no way without a proper aviation fueling system that these carriers will ever perfom more than a few..oh 8-10 sorties a day. No way.

I do not remember seeing fuel trucks on photographs of Moskwa class or Kiev class ships nor reading about their use aboard these ships. So the shipyard must have had a quarter of a century experience in installing fueling systems before it started building Adm. K. There are two alternative explanations. For Adm. K.: the fueling systems is not quite reliable because of maintenance problems. For Vikramaditya ( and also for Ex-Varyag ) because the fueling system has not yet been adequately tested.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

I think ex-Varyag will most certainly have fueling systems, we have no proof but i cant see China equipping the carrier out with 4 x 18 cell FL-3000N (72 missiles), 3 x 30mm Type 1030 CIWS, 2 x 240mm ASW launchers (10 barrels) 4 x Decoy/Chaff (24 barrels), 2 elevators, powered by 8 boilers and 2 shafts this ship means business, no doubt China has calculated sortie/turn around rates etc etc which means fueling system should be in place but still doesnt explain the fuel truck!
 

Bose

New Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

That depends on how many aircraft are being refueled. The USN has been using fueling stations for decades and specially trained crews to fuel the aircraft. Aviation Boatswain's Mate(Fuel) The hoses are simply pulled out and the aircraft is fueled. there are many fueling stations along the deck edge catwalk and in the hangar deck along the bulkhreds.. many.

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In this photo ^^^ you can clearly see the fuel truck forward of the Island aboard RU CV Admiral Kuznetsov . There is no way without a proper aviation fueling system that these carriers will ever perfom more than a few..oh 8-10 sorties a day. No way.

Can you please provide more info regarding the fuel station on the American carriers?
How many refueling point/station are there?
Is it a decentralized system with each unit working as an individual pumping station?


In the case of Russian carrier, I don't have a clear idea where the point is located. But we might be able to get a better understanding on the matter once the Vikramaditya enters service. But I've to disagree with you that using refueling truck for serving the aircraft is a design flaw. There are few more things to clear before we come to the conclusion that it is going to affect the number of sorties due to lack refueling stations.

We have some info on the Soviet/Russian LPD below..

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The ship accommodates four helicopters. Landing parties can be air lifted by helicopter. The helicopter hangar is located within the superstructure. Helicopters can be brought out of the hangar through two exit doors, one leading to the helicopter landing pad forward of the superstructure and the other to the second landing pad behind the superstructure. Both landing pads are equipped with helicopter refuelling and replenishment stations.
The ship is small in comparison to the Kuznetsov/Varyag/Vikramaditya and still it have two dedicated stations for replenishment & refueling the helos, dictated by necessity. Two stations on that smaller ship is actually a wastage of space due to two separate landing spots.

By replacing one refueling & replenishment station they will be able to save the space but they will need to employ a mobile refueling truck which can maintain the refueling service at the front deck. I feel we see a larger form of this mobile unit concept being employed on the Russian carriers. This was what I had in mind when I wrote my reply about the aircraft not having to visit the stationary refueling station, but did not explain it clearly.

But what we know is that Russia have been using such dedicated refueling point/station on their ships and it is only natural for the carriers to have it. But the problem likely is that, we clearly don't know where it is.

Since the Kuznetsov & Vikramaditya does not have a very large air wing like that of USN carriers, there may not be a need for refueling point/station (how many???) on the deck. Rather they might be having a point/station some where from which the trucks are refueling (once it gets empty) and supplying it to the aircrafts.
 

Bose

New Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

I do not remember seeing fuel trucks on photographs of Moskwa class or Kiev class ships nor reading about their use aboard these ships. So the shipyard must have had a quarter of a century experience in installing fueling systems before it started building Adm. K.
True.
We see such facility on the Soviet/Russian LPDs.

There are two alternative explanations. For Adm. K.: the fueling systems is not quite reliable because of maintenance problems. For Vikramaditya ( and also for Ex-Varyag ) because the fueling system has not yet been adequately tested.
I disagree on this one because our picture on the matter is not clear. Lets wait for the Vikramaditya to get operational, it will give us a clear idea on the refueling stations.

@Equation,

I agree, but unlike the USN carriers the number of assets on deck is lower. So probably the Russians employed a different route for the refueling needs.



Btw, how do I delete the double post I made above?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Can you please provide more info regarding the fuel station on the American carriers?
How many refueling point/station are there?
Is it a decentralized system with each unit working as an individual pumping station?

each station can work individually.

On the bow of the ship there are three refueling stations.

Aft on the ship there are six or seven.
 

Bose

New Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

each station can work individually.

On the bow of the ship there are three refueling stations.

Aft on the ship there are six or seven.
Thanks!
Each station have a single hose or multiple?

Is that actually a lot or is it short on numbers considering the large number of aircraft's?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Thanks!
Each station have a single hose or multiple?

Is that actually a lot or is it short on numbers considering the large number of aircraft?

You are welcome.

The number of stations is sufficient for re-fueling & de-fueling.

There's only one hose per station and it is quite long.
 

Franklin

Captain
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Shipping Out

Are aircraft carriers becoming obsolete?

For decades, aircraft carriers have been the tool-of-choice for crisis response. Policymakers in Washington and four-star commanders in the field invariably have turned to carriers when they needed to signal U.S. intentions, quickly reinforce military power, or provide decision-makers with options during a predicament. The Navy has responded to the enduring demands of these customers by making the aircraft carrier strike group the prime organizing feature of the Navy's surface and aviation forces, thereby drawing the biggest share of the service's manpower, budget, support, and training resources. And until recently, the Air Force seemed happy to cede this crisis-response role, because then it could focus on its own priorities.

However, new and disruptive weapons and technologies will soon upset long-standing assumptions and cozy inter-service arrangements. In particular, the spread of long-range anti-ship missiles threatens the ability of aircraft carriers to perform their traditional missions. What's more, these disruptions are occurring at the moment when U.S. policymakers are under pressure to find cheaper ways of performing essential military missions. And the Air Force could develop the technology and the long-range platforms to carry out many of the carrier's missions at less cost. All these factors could force planners to rethink air power from first principles, leading to stormy times for aircraft carriers and inter-service harmony.

The aircraft carrier's combat debut in the Pacific theater in 1941 instantly made the battleship obsolete. Aircraft carriers delivered more firepower, over longer ranges, with more speed and flexibility, over a wider variety of targets at sea and ashore. After World War II, the power of U.S. aircraft carriers forced adversaries to focus their naval spending on submarines rather than major surface ships, a trend still visible today. Without enemy surface ships to sink, the Navy's carrier pilots focused on projecting air power ashore, which they did against North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice), and Afghanistan.

Over the past half-century, the Navy's carriers also became well-suited to crisis response. Carrier strike groups could typically arrive at trouble spots within days and without the need for tedious negotiations with host countries over permissions and basing rights. The Air Force was fine with this arrangement because, although its tactical fighter wings could theoretically perform a similar role, the service's doctrine called for large, well-established, and well-supplied bases from which it could reliably generate a high sortie rate. Such ponderous guidance could not deal well with fleeting contingencies, many of which occurred in austere locations.

But the proliferation of cheap but deadly long-range anti-ship missiles promises to upset these assumptions and arrangements. For example, China is putting anti-ship missiles on submarines, patrol boats, surface ships, aircraft, and trucks, giving it the ability to dominate its nearby seas. For the price of a single major warship, China can buy hundreds or even thousands of anti-ship missiles. And as it perfects its own reconnaissance drones, China will be able to thoroughly patrol neighborhood waters, identifying targets for these missiles.

The Navy's aircraft carriers will come under pressure to retreat from this missile zone. However, there is a limit to how far they can retreat while still remaining in the game. As large as U.S. aircraft carriers are, they can only launch relatively small short-range fighter-bomber aircraft. For example, the F-35C, the carrier version of the Joint Strike Fighter, has a combat radius of just 615 miles. Mid-air refueling can extend this range. But refueling is not possible in hostile air space, and even with it, small fighters are constrained by the physiological limits of their single pilot.


The Air Force's long-range bombers, by contrast, with two pilots and room inside to stretch, have routinely flown intercontinental missions lasting over 30 hours. Recently, an Air Force B-1 bomber wing continuously maintained at least one of its big bombers over Afghanistan during a six-month deployment to a base in southwest Asia. While on station over Afghanistan, the B-1s responded to over 500 requests for close air support from troops in fire fights.

Ironically, just as the value and utility of its long-range bomber forces was increasing, the Air Force has spent the past decade focused on its F-22 and F-35 fighters, which, like the Navy's carrier aircraft, have to operate from vulnerable close-in bases and whose combat ranges are too short for the Asia-Pacific theater's vast expanses. But, after much bureaucratic resistance and delay, the Air Force is finally moving ahead with a new stealthy long-range bomber to supplement and eventually replace the legacy fleet that has withered over the past decade.

The arrival of the new bomber, when combined with the anti-ship missile threat and budget austerity, could force Pentagon planners to reassess the nature of air support, especially during crisis response in missile-contested war zones. That would be unhappy news to Navy and Air Force officials who have become comfortable with long-existing arrangements. If the missile threat in the western Pacific or the around the Persian Gulf becomes too great, policymakers and planners may conclude that too much prestige may be at risk with the deployment of a carrier strike group in response to a crisis. Diplomatic or tactical objections may similarly rule out an Air Force fighter deployment. That would leave long-range bombers as the only usable crisis-response tool and raise questions about the investments in more aircraft carriers and short-range fighters.

But beyond crisis response, Air Force bombers could redefine close air support as well. Until recently, supporting infantrymen in battle was assumed to be the job of small fighters. With precision-guided bombs, that is no longer true -- during their deployment in southwest Asia, the B-1s dropped bombs just 300 meters from friendly forces. By providing a continuous presence, troops on patrol always had air power overhead -- and very likely at a cheaper price than the cost of building, stocking, operating, and protecting air bases for fighters inside the combat zone.

There is another alternative. In a recent article in Proceedings, defense analyst Daniel Goure articulated a vision of aircraft carriers equipped with unmanned reconnaissance-strike drones, which, with mid-air refueling, could fly far longer and farther than jets with a human crew. Assuming the Navy could work out the considerable threats to their communications links (a problem the Air Force must also solve), drones could keep aircraft carriers in the fight even if they had been pushed back by anti-ship missiles. The Navy's carrier drone program is very active and well ahead of the Air Force's new bomber program. But even that success could backfire for carriers. If the Navy can perfect long-range drone missions, why not intercontinental drone missions? And if that's the case, a land base would work just fine. All of which could set up a new round of inter-service brawling inside the Pentagon.

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NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

The new CVN-78/79 class of carriers will use a new concept in re-fueling and re-arming aircraft based on ideas generated by NASCAR:

"A NASCAR flight deck philosophy. The “island” tower on the flight deck is being redesigned, reduced, and moved. As Rear Adm. Dwyer noted: “The people who actually handle aircraft said, ‘The island’s in the wrong place. It makes the aircraft all jam up. Why don’t you move it?’” So the island has shifted 100 feet aft, and the carrier’s elevators, deck et. al. are being shifted to a racetrack-like pattern of operations, complete with “pit stop” parking"

These improvements are expected to result in an increased sortie rates of 160 sorties a day with surge rates of 220 sorties per day
 
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