Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Franklin

Captain
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

From Russia With Love? China vs. India Carrier Showdown

There’s a pronounced aerial component to Asia’s march to the seas.

The Indian Navy’s newest aircraft carrier, the soon-to-be-commissioned INS Vikramaditya, recently took to the Barents Sea for its second shakedown cruise. After putting the ship through its paces, the Russian shipyard Sevmash will reportedly deliver it to the Indian Navy at year’s end—culminating a prolonged, painful, sometimes comical overhaul process that converted the Soviet “aircraft-carrying cruiser” Admiral Gorshkov into a more conventional flattop featuring a ski jump for vaulting short-takeoff warplanes into the skies.

Meanwhile, China’s first carrier, the Soviet-built vessel formerly known as Varyag, is underway for its longest sea trials since first casting off lines last summer. It will reportedly cruise the Bohai Sea for 25 days. Whether New Delhi and Beijing intend to build blue-water fleets around carrier task forces is no longer in question. They do, and they are.

Which aspiring sea power has the advantage in carrier aviation, China or India?

Tough to say.

China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLA Navy) probably gets the nod from a purely material standpoint, whereas the Indian Navy holds the edge in the all-important human dimension.

One caveat. I’ve come to doubt how meaningful side-by-side comparisons of armaments are when abstracted from their larger political, strategic, and geographic context. They have an unearthly feel. Battle is the arbiter of which force is superior. Myriad factors like geographic distance, logistics, the number and capability of escort ships, and the availability and striking power of shore-based fire support shape tactical engagements. Indeed, they can decide the outcome.

Think about it. If the two fleets met in the China seas, Chinese commanders would bring not just the PLA Navy surface fleet but short-range submarines, aircraft flying from airfields ashore, and land-based anti-ship missiles to bear—massing far more firepower than the fleet alone could manage. The pattern would reverse itself if a clash took place in the Bay of Bengal. Indian commanders could hurl additional assets into the fray, taking advantage of short distances to the theater and nearby manpower, land-based platforms, and bases.

It cannot be repeated too many times: sea power is more than the navy. It’s hard to isolate and measure two navies’ relative combat power short of assigning them a set of coordinates far from either belligerent’s shores—how about the Weddell Sea, adjacent to Antarctica, or the South Atlantic?—and instructing them to meet there to fight it out. That would come close to excluding all external variables. In other words, it’s hard to run a controlled experiment to gauge naval power.

All of that being said, it’s worth examining each platform to see what it may bring to a sea fight. The Vikramaditya/Gorshkov displaces about 45,000 tons fully loaded—that is, including the air wing, the crew, fuel, stores, and everything else a man-of-war needs to ply the briny deep. For comparison’s sake, that’s a tad bigger than a US Navy Essex-class fleet carrier of World War II vintage. It approximates the dimensions of today’s big-deck U.S. Navy amphibious assault ships (LHA or LHD).

The Varyag, on the other hand, weighs in at a bit over 67,000 tons fully loaded. That’s roughly the size of the modernized USS Midway, the retired supercarrier that now adorns the San Diego waterfront as a museum ship. Size matters. With bigger hulls comes greater hangar and flight-deck space, and thus the capacity to accommodate a larger, more diverse air wing.

And to be sure, the Varyag will reportedly carry about 26 fixed-wing combat aircraft—the official People’s Daily speculated that J-15s will operate from its deck for the first time during the ongoing shakedown—and about 24 helicopters. (I hem-and-haw on the exact figures because an air wing’s composition is not fixed. The U.S. Navy has experimented with various configurations over the years.) The Vikramaditya/Gorshkov’s complement is a more modest 16 tactical aircraft—Mig-29Ks were part of the package deal for the ship—and 10 helicopters. The Chinese carrier’s fighter/attack force, then, is over half-again as large as its Indian counterpart’s. Quantity isn’t everything, but it is important in air-to-air combat. Advantage: China.

It’s worth pointing out, however, that both ships are modest in capability relative to their nuclear-powered U.S. Navy brethren, each of which displaces over 100,000 tons and can carry an air wing numbering some 90 fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft—nearly double the complement for the Varyag. It’s also worth recalling that both ships are Soviet relics, and that the Soviet Navy never quite got carrier aviation right. Whether Russian or Chinese shipwrights have managed to correct any lingering design defects remains to be seen. Whatever the case, it’s fair to say that Beijing and New Delhi are fielding what some wags term “starter carriers” in the Varyag and Vikramaditya. Both navies are pursuing indigenously built carriers for their future fleets.

My guess is that the Indian Navy commands a significant advantage over the PLA Navy in the domains of airmanship and seamanship. As the late U.S. Air Force colonel John Boyd liked to quip, machines don’t fight wars; people, ideas, and hardware—in that order!—are the determinants of competitive enterprises. There is a reason we call it a trial of arms. Many outcomes are possible when human wills interact.

Indians seem to excel at air power. U.S. Air Force pilots who face off against their Indian counterparts in mock combat rave about the skills and panache of Indian airmen. And while the Vikramaditya is a new class of flattop and the MiG-29K a new aircraft for the Indian Navy, carrier operations are nothing new for the navy. The service has operated at least one flattop for over half a century. For example, INS Viraat, a Centaur*-class vessel built for Britain’s Royal Navy, has served in the Indian fleet for a quarter-century. In short, Indian mariners are steeped in a naval-aviation culture that the Chinese are only starting to instill. Advantage: India.

Both Chinese and Indian flattops—like all warships, and indeed all weapon systems—remain “black boxes” until actually used in battle against real opponents pounding away at them. This is true even of the U.S. Navy, which fought its last major fleet engagement at Leyte Gulf in 1944. Payloads, weapon ranges, and sensor characteristics can look impressive on paper, but weaponry often underperforms the technical characteristics reported in the pages of Jane’s Fighting Ships. Faulty manufacturing, inadequate doctrine or tactics, and less-than-proficient users are only some of the countless variables that can open a chasm between promise and performance.

Observers must keep trying to appraise how platforms will perform in real-world combat. But let’s do so while keeping the political, strategic, and operational context in which battle takes place squarely in view. Numbers tell only part of the tale.

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

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All in all, not a bad article, the only massive issue is the absolutely baseless assumption that Indians would be better pilots or seamen.

The Indians do have the advantage of having operated carriers for many decades, but the current generation of crews and pilots only have experience with STVOL harriers. Operating conventional fixed wing aircraft would be a first for them as well.

So what if the Americans praised them at top gun (and the author was being distinctly generous to the point of disingennous in his summarisation of American pilots' opinion of their Indian counterparts. Go look the famous debriefing video on youtube if you want to know what they actually said), the British were full of praise about Indian troops during WWII and look how the stacked up against Chinese troops when it really mattered.

Not trying to start a X v Y debate so don't get too excited. My point is that the author and the American pilots who flew at Red Flag are in no position to compare the capabilities of Indian and Chinese pilots. The only ones who might be able to have an informed opinion on the matter would be the PAF, who fought the Indians and exercise against Chinese pilots, but they haven't made any public announcements on the matter.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Plawolf- the point is it will take years for PLAN to be proficient in carrier operations and for Chinese Naval aviators to come up to the standard of countries that have been operating CVEs, CV, and CVNs for decades. We are all amazed with the progress PLAN has made with the Ex-Varyag, but rebuilding her and relaunching her is only one step in a long and complex endeavor. And from this point of view, the excellent Indian Navy is decades ahead in experience.
 

Franklin

Captain
All in all, not a bad article, the only massive issue is the absolutely baseless assumption that Indians would be better pilots or seamen.

The Indians do have the advantage of having operated carriers for many decades, but the current generation of crews and pilots only have experience with STVOL harriers. Operating conventional fixed wing aircraft would be a first for them as well.

So what if the Americans praised them at top gun (and the author was being distinctly generous to the point of disingennous in his summarisation of American pilots' opinion of their Indian counterparts. Go look the famous debriefing video on youtube if you want to know what they actually said), the British were full of praise about Indian troops during WWII and look how the stacked up against Chinese troops when it really mattered.

Not trying to start a X v Y debate so don't get too excited. My point is that the author and the American pilots who flew at Red Flag are in no position to compare the capabilities of Indian and Chinese pilots. The only ones who might be able to have an informed opinion on the matter would be the PAF, who fought the Indians and exercise against Chinese pilots, but they haven't made any public announcements on the matter.

Originally posted by Black Stone
Plawolf- the point is it will take years for PLAN to be proficient in carrier operations and for Chinese Naval aviators to come up to the standard of countries that have been operating CVEs, CV, and CVNs for decades. We are all amazed with the progress PLAN has made with the Ex-Varyag, but rebuilding her and relaunching her is only one step in a long and complex endeavor. And from this point of view, the excellent Indian Navy is decades ahead in experience.

When you compare the Chinese and Indian carrier ops you have to separate the ship and the air wing.

When it comes to the ship China can win this competition hands down. The ex-Varyag is not only much bigger than the Vikramaditya (67,000 tons vs. 45,000 tons) but also much better designed. It doesn't have a lot of the Vikramaditya's drawbacks like the misplaced huge oversized island, the misplacement of the elevators, there is only one fully useful elevator on the Vikramaditya compared to the two on the ex-Varyag. And on the ex-Varyag flight ops doesn't hinder the use of the elevators or vice versa unlike on the Vikramaditya. The positioning of the arrestor wires makes parking behind the Vikramaditya's island uncomfortable and the ex-Varyag has a much bigger flight deck in general.

But when it comes to the air wing India here clearly has the advantage over China as they have already received their fighters the MiG-29K Fulcrum-D's and have been training with them over the passed two years. China's Shenyang J-15 is still in the prototype fase and haven't entered production yet. So on that count India is two steps a head of China. Of course for India that has been operating -30,000 ton VSTOL carriers for the passed 50 years will have to learn to operate a 45,000 ton STROBAR carrier just like China needs to do. But because India has the experience in operating carriers over the passed 5 decades means that the learning curve for India will be far less steep than for China that has never operated a carrier of any kind before. So on that count you can say that India is 2,5 steps a head of China.

This means that in the short run India will have the better pilots and crew compared to China but in the long run as time goes by and China gains more experience. China will get the upperhand because they have the better carrier platform. And there for can carry out air ops much more efficiently than India can. The domestic carriers for both China and India are at least a decade away.
 
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delft

Brigadier
Too bad the Graf Zeppelin was built for bi-planes Naval aviator, other than that she's a beauty. I was hoping Germany would build something for the Sea Phoon (Typhoon for Navy) types or even for VSTOL F-35B and sell it to other NATO nations.
Don't forget that RN operated biplanes from its flattops for the whole of WWII, Fairey Swordfishes. The successor, another biplane, the Fairey Albacore, left the service even earlier than the Swordfish. ( The Swordfish soldiered on on the smaller British flattops while the Albacore and its successor the Fairey Baracuda needed larger flight decks ) The German biplane you refer to, just as the Swordfish a torpedo bomber, the Fieseler 167, was much more modern and seems to have been an excellent aircraft. The fighter biplane Ar-197 was already replaced IIRC by a version of Bf-109 before the ship was launched.

You can make plans for the German armed forces, but I don't see Germany doubling is military budget, and certainly not in the present circumstances.
 
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navyreco

Senior Member

VAQ-130 Lands its First Growler aboard Truman

USS HARRY S. TRUMAN, At sea (NNS) -- Airborne Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) 130, the Zappers, landed its squadron's first operational EA-18G Growler on the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75), July 18.

The Growler, a variant of the F/A-18F Super Hornet, replaced the EA-6B Prowler as the primary electronic warfare strike aircraft for Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 3.

Getting Growlers aboard Truman is a huge achievement for the squadron, said Cmdr. Jeff Chism, the Zappers' executive officer.

"This is the first time our squadron has landed a Growler aboard a ship," said Chism. "Truman is only the second carrier on the East Coast with a VAQ squadron embarked, and we are thrilled to be here."
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navyreco

Senior Member
US Navy carriers prepare for X-47B UCAS unmanned aircraft arrival next year
The Navy is one year away from landing its first unmanned jet aircraft aboard a carrier after completing the most recent round of surrogate tests aboard USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75).

In early July, members from the Unmanned Combat Air System Demonstration (UCAS-D) carrier integration team engaged in extensive software testing aboard Truman to validate the concept of autonomous UAV operations around an aircraft carrier and prepare for the X-47B unmanned aircraft’s arrival on a carrier next year.
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Varyag was built with lessons learnt from the Vikramaditya, so as a result it doesnt have the inherent drawbacks that Vikramaditya had

in addition the J15 is superior to the Mig-29K, but the battle between carriers comes down to not just the pilots of the air wing but the entire battle group working together in synergy with each other

as we seen at the battle of Mid-Way in 1942, that still holds true today
 
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