Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Franklin

Captain
Again, significant flaws...but not fatal. Fatal would mean it could not opperate at all, from the beginning. it is not fatal...it is inhibiting.

We have different definitions of the word fatal. To me very inhibiting and accident prone is fatal since it could cost lives and you could end up even losing the ship.

Many prior carriers (including older US ones) operated wioth lifts in the same type of locations. UK Carriers too. it inhibits things as you say, and if damaged is a real game changer...but that was lived with for years...decades on some of those carriers and they continued.

Those are mainly VSTOL carriers with aircraft like the Sea Harriers or the Yak-38 that can land vertically. So it doesn't matter whether the hanger bay door is open or not they can land. The MiG-29K on the other hand needs all the runway it can get to land like the F-14 or the F/A-18. And the position of the main elevator wouldn't be such a big issue if it didn't stretch on to the runway itself. That is what make's it impossible for the MiG's to land and what can cause serious accidents.

At to the space on deck, look at all of the renderings...they are not mine. They show adewute room fore of the Island for three aircraft and aft of the island for quite a few more (five or so).

Even if you can park 5 or 6 MiG's at the back of the island and 3 in front. Then where are you going to put the other 7 or 8 MiG's ? And where is the deck crew going to work the planes ? With this deck configuration its very difficult to rotate airplanes and there is very little space for the deck crew to work. The deck of a aircraft carrier is already a very dangerous place and this deck layout is going to make it more dangerous and takes the flight ops to a snail pace.

Finally, there can be no doubt that what they are about to get in the Virkamaditya is a huge improvement over the Viraat and its air wing. This is where the INdians are coming from and it got them this carrier earlier than their own builds. in the end, they will have three decent carries, two of them probably significantly better than this one.

Well since the INS Viraat is quickly losing her air wing due to attrition. The INS Vikramaditya will become the flag ship in the IN for years to come. The first IAC is not going to be commissioned in to IN at least untill 2016 or 2017.

vikram-02.jpg

PS that's the Admiral Kuznetsov. The island is all the way to the side and it's flying the Russian Navy flag. You can see the weapons in the corner includes a VLS system that the Vikramaditya doesn't have.
 
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cn_habs

Junior Member
You are right that it's now too late for the Indians to back out of this deal for financial, political and legal reasons. At least the Indians will have their domestic carriers to look forward to that would have more credibility than this one. However i do believe that the flaws on this carrier are fatal. To begin with there is very little space between the island and the runway and i think you're artist rendition of the carrier maybe too optimistic about how much space there will be on the deck. Which leaves virtually no space for the deck crew to work on the aircrafts. They have two choices. Either they can work on the runway itself which means all sorts of objects could fall on the runway and can cause serious accidents during landing. Or they can move their operations on to the space infront of the island robbing themselves of precious parking space and it could be a hazardous and hair razing experience both for the deck crews and the pilots to have planes take off and people working on the jets in such close proximity.

But the REAL problem of this carrier is the 30 ton main elevator. Any malfunction or poor timing in the use of this elevator could halt all flight ops at best or cause a catastrophic accident at worse. Because this elevator is located in the center of the carrier even on to the runway anything going wrong here means that the planes in the hanger cannot come up and even worse the planes in the air cannot land. The second elevator of 20 tons cannot take the weight or size of the MiG-29's so the 30 ton elevator is the only way in and out for the MiG-29's. Of course a jammed elevator is a serious problem on board any carrier but it does not cause the suspension of all flight ops or have the potential to cause a catastrophy on the ship like on the Vikramaditya.

Anyway i got a translation here of a blog entry from a former worker on the Vikramaditya.

Wow, how can the main elevator be placed at such a terrible location? Did some sketch artists design this layout instead of engineers? It's asking for accidents...
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
.How do you guys get those blue balloons for the quotes and how do you guys post full pictures and not just the name of the picture.

You should be able to. You have 89 post.

To post a quote click on the icon to the right of that film strip..

Next place your cursor between the brackets of the quote in brackets you will see. and paste what ever you want to post.

as for pictures..Find a photo you want to post. download it to your computer. Up load it using a photo hosting site. Follow the hosting sites instructions. Use the discussion board or forum url and simply paste it where you want the photo to appear in your post.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

why do you ask?

Because you asked the question. Surely you must have an opinion.

Personally I feel it is India's sovereign right to have carrier. The country juts out into the Indian Ocean. A large naval force is need to protect the country's shoreline.
 

stardave

Junior Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Because you asked the question. Surely you must have an opinion.

Personally I feel it is India's sovereign right to have carrier. The country juts out into the Indian Ocean. A large naval force is need to protect the country's shoreline.

I think India just like any country, can have whatever they like, but for India's sake, they are not doing a good job at getting those carriers, I feel like they are buying them for the sake of having them, just like Thailand, besides carrier they need to invest in escort ships, submarines etc... India is just not willing to invest the equal amount of resource into them.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Back to topic, my point was that China cannot afford 15 carriers like Cottagelv suggested. It's like saying China can put all of the money she uses to buy oil in to the military budget.

Yes, China could afford 15 carriers, I agree with CottageLV, it is just a matter of priority. China' GDP is $11.3T (PPP) or $7.3T (nominal)

China only spends less than 2% of GDP for defense, if it is a matter of national security, China could increase to at least 5 or 6% (remember USSR spent roughly 25% of GDP for defense), it means would be $400B or 4 times than now.

I believe China should spend 2.5% of the GDP .... roughly the same percentage as the UK (2.7%) or French (2.6%) , the USA spend 4-5%. If China spent 2.5%, it means over $200B. Remember, China' economy will grow at least 8% or in 7-9 years it's economy will be doubled or will be faster with Yuan appreciation. If China spent $80B for it's navy, surely enough $ for 10-12 carriers groups

Also remember you could do much more with $1 in China than in the USA or the UK. You could have a relatively decent lunch with 7 Yuan or $1.10. My question is what would you get in the USA with $1.10 ? ... I know I know .... it is just a perspective to make a point

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

I think India just like any country, can have whatever they like, but for India's sake, they are not doing a good job at getting those carriers, I feel like they are buying them for the sake of having them, just like Thailand, besides carrier they need to invest in escort ships, submarines etc... India is just not willing to invest the equal amount of resource into them.

I agree, just wrong priority ... the first priority is to lift ABSOLUTE poverty in India, we are talking about hundreds millions ... YES, bigger than the population of the USA.

No way China would attack India from the sea, just too far away and it's not China interest' to attack India. Pakistan navy is just too small to attack India, other countries barely have navy.
 
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aksha

Captain
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

in wikipedia i read that carriers will not be much useful in future wars because of supersonic drones that are are difficult to be detected by radar and half the indian navy says that they should have invested more in submarines considering the soviet era and old german subs .there is a rift in the navy on whether they should invest more in submarines or aircraft carriers
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

in wikipedia i read that carriers will not be much useful in future wars because of supersonic drones that are are difficult to be detected by radar and half the indian navy says that they should have invested more in submarines considering the soviet era and old german subs .there is a rift in the navy on whether they should invest more in submarines or aircraft carriers

So let's understand what a carrier is(ex-carrier personnel feel free to correct me, I served in the luftwaffe on land).
A carrier is a big well-defended ship on which aircrafts can land and take off. The ship contains an arsenal of amunitions and lots of aircraft fuel. Under the flight deck are the hangars with repair and maintenance facilities of a whole airbase.

You move such a carrier as close as possible to the targets you want to destroy and then the aircrafts start unloading the bomb arsenal on the carrier onto the targets, making as many runs as possible - the shorter the distance, the more bomb transports are possible within a certain time. Land based aircrafts can not easily move so close to targets of opportunity and thus much more land based aircrafts are required to deliver the same bombload during the same timeframe. The timeframe might at first seem irrelevant, but the targets are important to humans who try to figure out how to safe them. The more reaction time they have, the better they can protect the assets the aircrafts want to target. So why can't land based aircrafts not simply operate from nearby? Fuel, lots of fuel, airports have pipelines directly supplying them with fuel that is 20-30% of the weight of a combat aircraft ready for mission. An aircraft carrier is a large tanker that easily brings the fuel along to any place it swims. On land it takes time to lay the pipelines, with a good infrastructure days, under the worst conditions months. No matter what, the aircraft carrier is already away to the next target until the new base on land is ready. The majority of the human population lives near a coast and 90% of bulk trade is by sea and thus via ports, so lots of important targets are within carrier reach.

In air defence mode it is about maneuvering to avoid being shot while shooting someone else. That consumes the fuel in an aircraft rapidly because of the accelaration switches. The more sure a pilot is to consume the fuel and afterwards fly home alive from the ongoing air battle, the more tricks he can try. The closer the base, the faster an aircraft can refuel and re-enter the fray with a fresh pilot, while his predecessor tries to relax his shaken nerves. Nearby defended SAM stations on warships help to even further enhance the odds of the carrier based aircrafts.

Aerial refuelling by tanker aircrafts for carrier aircrafts is a stop gap measure because the range from carrier to target or air battle in many cases is not ideal. A tanker aircraft is useful, both for longer range and higher speed when delivering ordnance on targets and for re-fueling the higher energy storage for maneuvers in air combat (
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UAV are currently low speed long endurance observation plastforms that hover above a target and then drop a bomb while being operated by a human from far away with a radio-datalink to the aircraft that can be jammed therefore should be frequency hopping with compensation for incomplete data transfers.
These UAV can not be cheaper then a manned aircraft with the same capability because the expensive prt is not the pilots seat, but the avionics to which you have to add a radio data link that can withstand the extreme abuse every enemy is going to try to unload upon it (The Taliban bought laptops and watched the images drones were openly transmitting from their observations.). The problem gets amplified if you want to move this machine without someone else intercepting the messages to and from for locating the craft.
Extreme g-maneuverability of UAV is theoretically possible, but modern airframes already have less g tolerance than the latest g-suits can make tolerable. Other than the pilot and the frame, there are lots of objects in an aircraft that all have to withstand this g-limit, making things prohibitively expensive.

India is developing unmanned aircrafts as a means to create cheaper cruise missiles. The returning UAV will be more expensive than a cruise missile, but can be reused while the cruise missile is destroyed. Along with this idea for cost efficient munitions idea does work on multiple warheads per missile for a range of missiles. Combined these ideas would give India a cutting edge in technology because they have the means to achieve the same ends at a fraction of the costs. These improved cruise missiles won't displce aircrafts, but take over many bomber roles with manned aircrafts doing complex bomber attacks and operating as fighters, the best means for air defence.

An intermediate between these missiles and a big manned bomber are many small UAV bomber concepts. None would dare to enter defended enemy airspace sitting inside one of these.

The new perspective UAV provide is long endurance observation platforms that can carry limited armament and switch pilots who need to rest. These will likely be mixed with manned platforms and take over boring and dangerous tasks.

It has not yet been discovered how the airwings of the future will be composed, but flattops, such as aircraft carriers, don't mind what kind of wing takes off and are thus versatile to adapt while continuing to be the most potent sea-control tool. Submarines will remain only sea denial platforms.
Tell me whose access to the Indian Ocean should be denied by Indian submarines?
Some Pakistani submarines can on the other hand threaten Indian supply, so Indian carriers traditionally have a strong rotary wing to hunt these down.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

in wikipedia i read that carriers will not be much useful in future wars because of supersonic drones that are are difficult to be detected by radar and half the indian navy says that they should have invested more in submarines considering the soviet era and old german subs .there is a rift in the navy on whether they should invest more in submarines or aircraft carriers

Carriers are just expensive toys and won't be used against any major power, nobody dares to sink the US carrier as the Americans simply would say .. "anybody sink our carrier means sink our land so, will be at war with the Unites State of America "

Carrier just for showing off, nothing else, or like I said before .. just to scare the monkeys or second/third rate countries

Good to have one or two. but the first priority for very poor country like India is to lift absolute poverty in the country which is huge numbers, hundreds millions (YES, bigger than the whole population of the USA)
 

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

yes but India also uses these weapons to threaten other countrys in its neighbourhood, its one thing having them to secure ur interests but another when they start violating other nations waters and has fought wars with all its neighbours multiple times

a country which has 700,000 soldiers in a sovergien nation illegal under UN mandate should not be allowed to make carriers

Sorry, didn't get this one, you mean US or India?

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------

Aircraft carriers are still formidable war-machines. As missile technologies evolve, so does the shield for naval ships. Remember the ships of WWII? Those ships were not as sophisticated as today's ships, with less complexed water compartments to prevent sinking, neither did they have all those fancy technologies to keep them afloat, in case being struck. Even so, those ships still managed to be very very hard to sink, especially the king of all ships, aircraft carriers. The Japanese dropped thousands of pounds of bombs onto the USN carriers, plus another few Kamikaze planes loaded with fuel. Even so, most of them managed to survive.

I understand over the last few decades, the debate whether modern aircraft carriers are worthwhile against supersonic antiship missiles is getting really heated. But we also have to take into consideration of the Aegis system and their counterparts. In order to hit a carrier, you have to fire hundreds of missiles, which will be detected very quickly and countless of Standard series missiles will be launched to intercept the missiles. Even if the missiles get passed the Standards, there still will be countless Sea Sparrows and Sea RAM short range missiles. On top of that, there are few very effective Gatlin guns that could shoot down even supersonic missiles.

However, if you fire enough missiles at the carrier group, at least 10-30% could get passed the Aegis shield and hit the carrier. But the carrier itself is very hard to sink. It is a common sense that the bigger a warship is, the hard it is to sink. The US supercarriers are the largest warships ever built. They have countless water tight compartments, all designed to keep the ship afloat. The newer Nimitz are all designed with aid of computers, each probably undergone millions of simulations. It probably has a design that is almost impossible to sink.

The biggest problem regarding this topic is that I was mentioning the USN, the most sophisticated and well trained navy in the world. If we're talking about the Chinese navy or the Indian navy, it will be a totally different story. All this is impossible to achieve for the two for at least another decade or two. USN spent decades under intense pressure developing this to combat the mighty Soviet anti-ship missiles.

Aircraft carriers are just like anything else that is high-tech. It is very ineffective vulnerable and ineffective during its early days. But when matured, it is very effective and useful. Just look at the rail gun, it is useless at this moment and impossible to put on a ship. But when the technology matures, none of us will doubt its capability.

PS: The Shaw Iran and current Afghanistan are great example. Both have very advanced US weaponry, without proper training experience, they were still defeated by much worse equipped opponents.
 
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