Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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The ski jumps on an Invincible class aren't just empty structures, they have compartments within that would have to be relocated elsewhere in the ship. Also they already have the extra helo spot (Spot 'zero') which was realised when the Sea Dart Launchers were removed from the class ten years ago. Keeping the ski jump allows cross decking from allied Navies (USMC, Spain and Italy), so why remove it? Little gain, great loss, unnecessary expenditure.
Lusty won't deploy unless the Argentines do something rash and stupid, well they do have a track record on that score. How rash and how stupid is another matter. Cameron has already fallen for the RAF's lies about how they can meet any contingencies. As long as he keeps listening to the crabs the UK is heading for a major military humiliation, to go with the accumulation of minor ones we are already clocking up. The first Falklands War in 82 prevented the Government of the day from cutting vital capabilities they had planned to (two thirds of the ships in the Task Force were under sentence of death including both carriers), this time the ConDems have repeated the same mistakes but accelerated them so there is no chance of reversing the cuts. Cameron likes to portray our involvement in the recent Lybian campaign as joint equal partners with France, when we were actually way down the league, joint sixth position with Denmark! The RAF's no1 asset is it's PR machine, a sad reflection on how far we have fallen. This year's commemorations for the 30th anniversary of the Falklands War will be lead by the RAF, who were only involved peripherally. They are doing a marvellous job of convincing the media and the public that they won the war! In 1982 when Prime Minister Thatcher summoned the chiefs of Staff after the initial Argentine invasion, the heads of the Army and RAF shruged their shoulders and said the Islands could not be retaken. The head of the Navy had already prepared the fleet to sail in two days! Instead of pulling their socks up the' Light blue' and 'brown jobs' have gone out of their way to denigrate the RN over the last thirty years.
Worth remembering also that since WW2, the RAF hasn't shot down a single enemy aircraft in combat. All British military air to air kills have been by FAA aircraft operating from aircraft carriers.
Worth remembering also that since WW2, the RAF hasn't shot down a single enemy aircraft in combat. All British military air to air kills have been by FAA aircraft operating from aircraft carriers.
navyreco
Senior Member
But the Marines don't need no ramps
Fresh pic of the Indian carrier:
Still quite a long way to go...
But the Marines don't need no ramps
Fresh pic of the Indian carrier:
Still quite a long way to go...
The USMC pilots DO want ramps, they've tried them and love them, but the Navy Brass won't let them have them, lest Congress get's the idea the 'Gators' constitute a viable cheaper alternative to the big deck carriers. Google 'Marines experience Brit Style on Lusty' for reports of the USMC sqn that cross decked to Illustrious back in 2007.
Exactly.. read this..
Lusty’ is a refined carrier, USMC pilots say
By Vago Muradian - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Aug 6, 2007 19:48:41 EDT
ABOARD THE HMS ILLUSTRIOUS — What’s the definition of heaven if you’re a Marine Harrier pilot? Why, spending two weeks on one of Britain’s aircraft carriers, of course.
“What’s not to like? The flying’s awesome, the food and quarters are great, and you can get a drink at the end of the day,” said Maj. Stephan “Poppy” Bradicich, the executive officer of Marine Attack Squadron 542 who helped plan the unprecedented embarkation of 16 Harriers and 200 Marines aboard HMS Illustrious, known as “Lusty” to its crew.
Slideshow
Aboard the HMS Illustrious
The largest-ever embark of Marine personnel and aircraft aboard a foreign warship July 15-31 was part of Joint Task Force Exercise Operation Bold Step 07-02 that included the Harry S. Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower strike groups, to prepare Truman for its upcoming deployment.
The accommodations and food drew high marks from the Marines. They enjoyed everything from curry night to such traditional Royal Navy dishes as “hammy eggy cheesy” — toast layered with shredded ham, an egg and covered with melted cheese — and kippered herrings along with eggs, bacon and beans for breakfast, or haggis and bashed neeps — mashed turnips — for dinner. The ship even features “Chips at Six” — fresh french fries served in the bar before dinner.
Other pluses? A roomy, teak quarterdeck aft to take a quiet break or take in a sunset, beautifully varnished wooden ladders and generous carpeting — which are stripped when the ship goes into battle — and Internet connectivity that works every time.
But one of the most satisfying things is that the ship is a strike carrier where Harriers, not helicopters, are the priority.
“This is the Royal Navy’s A team, and they live and breathe strike,” said Col. Eric “Beans” Van Camp, the commanding officer of Marine Aircraft Group 14, who also commanded the U.S. air group aboard Illustrious. “On a gator, the Harriers are secondary to the amphibious and helicopter mission.”
Then there is the piece de resistance, the 20-foot-long blond oak bar that is the centerpiece of a spacious lounge, part of the wardroom annex where off-duty officers can draw a pint, dram, cocktail, coffee or tea and reflect on the day and prepare for tomorrow.
“Everyone’s working really hard, but it’s also OK to relax afterward with a beer, within the rules we live by,” Van Camp said. “The challenge is maintaining that balance between mission and safety.”
If you’re flying the next day, you’re not drinking, nor are you staying up late, Bradicich said as he sipped a soft drink.
“It’s a great tool that we don’t have,” Bradicich said. “On our ships, there’s no place where you can really unwind, get to know your shipmates on a personal level, and solve disagreements. Our view is that if you have free time, you should be doing something other than hanging around. Here, everyone works just as hard, but they also know how to unwind. It’s a huge philosophical difference.”
That philosophical difference manifests in the relaxed atmosphere aboard the ship, including the relationship between officers and ratings — British for enlisted personnel.
Case in point? Expect a cheery “good morning” as you make your way down the passage or an offer for help if you look lost. And in a welcome relief for the American contingent, the 1MC system doesn’t crackle with announcements 24 hours a day, and the officers don’t carry radios to contact one another or the captain.
“When you have a third of the ship asleep at any given time, it doesn’t make much sense to be waking them by blaring unnecessary announcements every few minutes,” one British officer said.
In fact, the only announcement is from the operations center that details the day’s plan and tests important alarms. The only other time you hear the loudspeaker is when there’s a problem, such as a fire or engineering casualty.
And why don’t the officers carry radios like their American counterparts? “What the bloody hell do you need a radio for?” the British officer asked. “You know the plan, what the captain’s intentions and expectations are. As an officer, your job is to lead, and if you need to talk to the captain all the time, then you’re not doing your job or letting him do his.”
Another philosophical difference is that the British are open to ideas that to Americans seem goofy, but work, such as the 12-degree ramp at the bow of the ship that dramatically improves Harrier operations. Senior U.S. naval officers over the decades have vetoed the idea, saying they don’t like how it looks and that it takes up three helicopter landing spots. British and Marine officers say only one deck spot is lost to the “ski jump.”
To a man, Marine pilots want the ramps installed on their ships to improve operational flexibility and safety.
“We’re all in love with the ski ramp because when you come off that ramp, you’re flying,” Bradicich said. “From our ships, if you’re fully loaded, you need 750 feet, and even then you’ve got some sink once you clear the deck. Here, you can do the same thing in 450 feet and you’re climbing.”
But the ramp is intimidating at first sight, pilots said.
“I expected it to be violent, but when you take off, it’s almost a non-event,” said Maj. Grant “Postal” Pennington, a pilot with VMA-513 at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Ariz. “Up you go, and you’re climbing. It’s a great experience.”
Equally important is the ship that’s bolted to the ramp, pilots said.
“Some of our younger guys who haven’t flown from our ships yet are in for a big surprise when they do,” Bradicich said. “This is probably the best ship you could possibly fly a Harrier from. It’s not very big, but it’s really stable, no roll, just a little pitch, not like the flat-bottom gators that roll so much. You’ve got the island moving 30 feet(an exaggeration) in each direction when you’re trying to land. That tends to get your attention.”
The combination of ski ramp, stability and dedicated crew contributed to a breakneck operational pace. The Marines proudly logged a ship record 79 takeoffs and landings in one day.
“These guys are great. We’ve qualed 28 guys in three days, most with eight landings and takeoffs, so even though we said that we were going to crawl, walk, run, our pace has been tremendous, even with different procedures,” Pennington said. “We like to approach the ship at 45 degrees and hit one of the spots, but they approach from dead astern, come to a hover abeam, slide over, then drop down to the deck. It’s different, but you get the hang of it.”
The only downside? “The thought that we’re going to have to get off,” Bradicich said.
A Royal Navy welcome
To welcome the Marines aboard, the ship’s company invited their American guests to an evening of traditional Royal Navy tomfoolery, Horse Racing Night. Outlandish costumes were encouraged, and the event, held in the ship’s hangar deck July 21 because of choppy weather, was hosted by an Elvis impersonator in full polyester regalia as the ship’s band played.
The next day, an athletic competition was held on Illustrious’ flight deck, pitting the Royal Navy against the Marine Corps in six events: rowing; weightlifting; tractor pull; the standard Royal Navy physical fitness, or “beep,” test; shuttle run with two 40-pound sandbag weights; and a tug of war.
To the Marines’ chagrin, the Brits won all the events except for weightlifting.
In a more military contest, the Marine aircraft dropped dummy bombs and fired 20mm rounds against a target towed by Illustrious that produces a geyser of water and serves as an aim point.
Sailors expressed confidence that the Marines wouldn’t hit the target, and despite several close calls — including a mock bomb attack by one of the youngest pilots, 1st Lt. Douglas “Rosie” Rosenstock — that lifted it out of the water, the target escaped unscathed.
Two questions:
First: If I remember rightly the Harriers turn their jet pipes down after leaving the ramp at about 80 kts. The Su-33 can't do that so will have a higher speed at that point. What is their speed when they leave the ramp of Adm. K?
Second: Why do you insist on avoiding the advantages of combining ramp and cat, when the article above shows clearly the folly of avoiding the ramp?
First: If I remember rightly the Harriers turn their jet pipes down after leaving the ramp at about 80 kts. The Su-33 can't do that so will have a higher speed at that point. What is their speed when they leave the ramp of Adm. K?
Second: Why do you insist on avoiding the advantages of combining ramp and cat, when the article above shows clearly the folly of avoiding the ramp?
When lauching by ramp, Harrier pilots preset the nozzle control lever to 45 degrees but begin the roll with the nozzles aft for maximum acceleration. Whe they reach the ramp the nozzles are rotated to 45 degrees to provide additional lift through the transition to wingborne flight. Aircraft like the SU-33 and Mig-29K do not have rotating nozzles, instead relying on the high thrust levels of their engines at the high angle of attack produced by leaving the ramp. Raw thrust does the job, in effect.
The least best way of getting a jet off the deck of a carrier is a flat deck takeoff roll. As the article above states the Harriers need 750ft of an 800 ft deck and even then it's a struggle at full load. The next best way to get off the deck is the Ramp, because it gets you off the deck and climbing before you have reached flying speed (130+ knots), aircraft leaving the deck after 450ft at around 80 knots (SU-33s too). The best way to leave the deck is by catapult, full load of fuel and ordnance in 300ft at full flying speed (130+ knots). As a full length catapult takes up less deck space than that needed for a ramp takeoff roll and the complexity of a cat is mostly contained in those parts of the cat other than the double slotted cylinder, the costs (manufacturing and maintenance) of a cat remain broadly the same whatever the stroke length (100ft or 300ft for example) then if you are fitting a cat you may as well go the whole hog and fit a full length one. I don't see what advantage can be gained by fitting a short cat to a ramp because the aircraft's own engine can accelerate it up the ramp to the required exit speed without any catapult assistance and with much less complications. Unless you are planning to launch gliders off a ramp there is simply no need for and no advantage to a cat/ramp combination.
The least best way of getting a jet off the deck of a carrier is a flat deck takeoff roll. As the article above states the Harriers need 750ft of an 800 ft deck and even then it's a struggle at full load. The next best way to get off the deck is the Ramp, because it gets you off the deck and climbing before you have reached flying speed (130+ knots), aircraft leaving the deck after 450ft at around 80 knots (SU-33s too). The best way to leave the deck is by catapult, full load of fuel and ordnance in 300ft at full flying speed (130+ knots). As a full length catapult takes up less deck space than that needed for a ramp takeoff roll and the complexity of a cat is mostly contained in those parts of the cat other than the double slotted cylinder, the costs (manufacturing and maintenance) of a cat remain broadly the same whatever the stroke length (100ft or 300ft for example) then if you are fitting a cat you may as well go the whole hog and fit a full length one. I don't see what advantage can be gained by fitting a short cat to a ramp because the aircraft's own engine can accelerate it up the ramp to the required exit speed without any catapult assistance and with much less complications. Unless you are planning to launch gliders off a ramp there is simply no need for and no advantage to a cat/ramp combination.
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