Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

IIRC small UAVs can be recovered into a net without even touching the deck! At least the ones deployed from the Iowa class BBs during the first Gulf War could be. I think I understand what Scratch means about using the Emcats for recovery, he means that the magnetic motors could be used as substitute Arrestor engines to absorb the energy of a landing aircraft or UAV. Theoretically possible, but unnecessary, as a four wire or three wire Installation is more than enough to keep pace with the recovery rate of carrier aircraft. The wires will be reset before the aircraft that has just landed has taxied off the runway into the deck park, so the limiting factor isn't the arrestor engines but the aircraft's ability to clear the landing area after recovery.

I'm somewhat envious of those of you in the US, as you are spoilt for choice when it comes to historic ships (CVs/BBs etc), whereas in the UK the only preserved 20th C warships are HMS Belfast (WW2 cruiser), HMS Cavalier (WW2 Destroyer), HMS Plymouth (1960s vintage Frigate) and a few diesel Subs. The WW1 Jutland veteran HMS Caroline (light cruiser) is still in use in Belfast as a RN reserve training ship and may be turned into a museum in the future. There are no British Battle ships or Aircraft Carriers preserved and the nearest you can get to experiencing such a vessel is the 'Carrier' exhibit at the FAA museum in Yeovilton, where they have reproduced the centre section of the Ark Royals' deck and island with genuine aircraft, including a Phantom mounted on the forward catapult and two Buccaneers (an S1 and an S2) as well as a Gannet from HMS Eagle and several other Jets. Not the same as the real thing but well worth a visit.

Further info avaiable here;

bd popeye said:

Scratch, I'm just putting my experience into your ideas and drawings.

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And I very much apreciate it. I should have put a emoticon at the end of my last comment. If it sounded harsh I'm sorry.

Scratch, I'm trying to picture in my itty bitty brain what you are refering to here;

A picture would be nice. That way I could really picture what you are refering to.

In the case of the lighter UAV's those probally could be recovered without arresting cables.

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There's a new pic at the bottom. Obi Wan pretty much got what I meant. And if the arrestor wires are reset that fast, then the idea is useless. I just did not know how fast those wires can be reset.
Anyway, a few minutes after I shut down my PC after the last post I briefly thought about it and came to the conclusion that such an installment would be pretty useless, because I guess it is the first place where recovered aircraft are spotted.
In my mind I was thinking of UAVs at least the weight and size of the NG X-47 Pegasus demonstrator. Probably even larger up to the Boeing X-45 Spiralo.

Yes Scratch arresting wires are re-set in a minute or less...But you do have overall great ideas.

It's a shame that no RN Cv's are held as musuems. Really. The British are responsible for so many carrier inovations. It is a damn shame.

Obi Wan in the US there are numerous USN musuem ships...Of all classes. There are 5 CV's held as musuems. Intrepid in New York. Midway in SD. Lexington in Corpus Christi TX. Hornet in Alameda CA. And Yorktown in Charleston SC.

There are plans to berth the Saratoga in Rhode Island as a musuem and the Ranger in Portland OR as a musuem.

I'm traveling to San Diego next month and will tour my old ship the Midway!

Obi Wan posted this in another thread:

During WW2 the Yorktown class CV 8 USS Hornet was struck by multiple torpedos, bombs and shell from her own side after she had been abandoned and she still refused to sink. The burning hulk was abandoned and fell into the hands of the advancing Japanese, the only instance of a carrier falling into enemy hands during wartime (compared with hundreds of land based airfields changing hands, for the benefit of the anti carrier lobby out there), but she was too badly damaged for salvage to be contemplated and was despatched with yet another salvo of torpedos. American anti Torpedo design was already quite advanced cosidering she was a prewar design of about 27,000tons, and lessons learned have been incorporated into following designs so a single torpedo (modern ones are no bigger than WW2 torps because torpedo tubes on subs are still the same size, limiting the size of warhead they can carry) hitting a 90,000ton CVN is unlikely to be a ship-killing weapon.

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It is not easy to sink a carrier. Even one built prior to WWII. Not an easy task. The Hornet was pummeled by both IJN and USN forces. Finally in the end it took 4 IJN torpedos to sink her.

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The Battle of Santa Cruz Island took place 26 October 1942 without contact between surface ships of the opposing forces. That morning Enterprise planes bombed carrier Zuiho. Planes from Hornet severely damaged carrier Shokaku, and cruiser Chikuma. Two other cruisers were also attacked by Hornet aircraft. Meanwhile, Hornet, herself, was fighting off a coordinated dive bombing and torpedo plane attack which left her so severely damaged that she had to be abandoned. Commented one sailor, awaiting rescue, when asked if he planned to re-enlist, "Dammit, yes — on the new Hornet!" Captain Mason, the last man on board, climbed over the side and survivors were soon picked up by destroyers.

The abandoned Hornet, ablaze from stem to stern, refused to accept her intended fate from friends. She still floated after receiving nine torpedoes and more than 400 rounds of 5-inch shellfire from destroyers Mustin and Anderson. Japanese destroyers hastened the inevitable by firing four 24-inch torpedoes at her blazing hull. At 0135, 27 October 1942, she finally sank off the Santa Cruz Islands. Her proud name was struck from the Navy List 13 January 1943.

Hornet (CV-8) received four battle stars for World War II service. Her famed Torpedo Squadron 8 was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation "for extraordinary heroism and distinguished service beyond the call of duty" in the Battle of Midway.

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bd popeye said:

Obi Wan posted this in another thread:


It is not easy to sink a carrier. Even one built prior to WWII. Not an easy task. The Hornet was pummeled by both IJN and USN forces. Finally in the end it took 4 IJN torpedos to sink her.

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While true, a carrier is extremely easy to sink when it has its planes fueled and ready to launched. The Akagi, Kaga, Hiryo and Soryo were sunk with a relatively few numbers of bombs. USS Franklin was severely damaged by 1 bomb that detonated on here bomb laden planes and one bomb severely damage USS Princeton that it had to be scuttled.

On another note, after the Battle of Santa Cruz, the USN only had 1 carrier left in the Pacific (Enterprise), the IJN had 2 fleet carriers (Shokaku and Zuikaku) and several escort. The next carrier battle would be the Philippine Sea. The US had rebuilt her fleet to include 15 carriers while Japan only had 9.

IDonT said:

While true, a carrier is extremely easy to sink when it has its planes fueled and ready to launched. The Akagi, Kaga, Hiryo and Soryo were sunk with a relatively few numbers of bombs. USS Franklin was severely damaged by 1 bomb that detonated on here bomb laden planes and one bomb severely damage USS Princeton that it had to be scuttled.

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It was generally thought that dive bombers would be able to put a carrier out of action but that torpedo bombers would be needed to sink it. At Midway, though, the Japanese carriers were sunk by dive bombers for the reason you've given. In the sinking of the first three IJN carriers, however, the torpedo bombers did contribute, at great personal cost, by drawing the Japanese fighters to a low level to counter them. With the Zeros unable to regain height the Dauntless dive bombers were able to launch a devastating attack that turned the tide of the Pacific War.

I think Franklin's survival is testament to the toughness of the Essex class and the efficiency and bravery of her damage control personnel. Compared with Hornet which was restricted to 20,000 tons by treaty, the Essex class benefited greatly from an extra 7000 tons which enabled better protection to be built in to the design.

Cheers

While true, a carrier is extremely easy to sink when it has its planes fueled and ready to launched. The Akagi, Kaga, Hiryo and Soryo were sunk with a relatively few numbers of bombs.

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I think the quick disposal of the IJN CV's in the incidents you mentioned was helped by another factor. The poor training of the average IJN sailor coupled with war wearness. Plus the realitivity poor damage control systes on board IJN CV's.>>. I. E. Poor fire equipment. Non-redundant firemains. And again poor training.

as were talking about damage control on carriers when was the 1st firefighting system which washed over the deck thought the holes in the deck

harryRIEDL said:

as were talking about damage control on carriers when was the 1st firefighting system which washed over the deck thought the holes in the deck

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Are you perhaps thinking of the pre-wetting system? Not actually intended for fire fighting, it's purpose is to make radioactive fallout easy to wash off the deck by pre-wetting the ship's exposed surfaces by means of sprinkler systems fitted to the deck.

Illustrated is a test of the pre wetting system aboard HMS Hermes in the 1960s.

bd popeye said:

I think the quick disposal of the IJN CV's in the incidents you mentioned was helped by another factor. The poor training of the average IJN sailor coupled with war wearness. Plus the realitivity poor damage control systes on board IJN CV's.>>. I. E. Poor fire equipment. Non-redundant firemains. And again poor training.

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Another advantage the USN had at Midway was radar. Yorktown detected the first Japanese carrier strike some 150 miles out and that gave her crew time to secure the ship, shutdown the aviation fuel hoses and pump them full of carbon dioxide so they wouldn't cause a devastating explosion. The first the IJN ever knew of incoming USN planes was by visual contact, that's why those Dauntlesses could sneak in undetected, while the IJN was focused on beating off the torpedo bomber attacks and then attack at the best possible moment. In contrast, Yorktown had time to prepare for the attack and that's why she survived the first strike, radar and brilliant damage control.