Aerodynamics thread

Pmichael

Junior Member
No, the Su-30 and Eurofighter weren't even . You can't make things up to get a point.

And Russia was using canards not to add supermaneuverbility capacities but to improve low-speed characteristics. Outside of the radical MiG 1.44 design they are following a similiar design school as Amercia with the large twin-tails designs, which is general rather the reason for the high subsonic AoA
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

b787

Captain
No, the Su-30 and Eurofighter weren't even . You can't make things up to get a point.

And Russia was using canards not to add supermaneuverbility capacities but to improve low-speed characteristics. Outside of the radical MiG 1.44 design they are following a similiar design school as Amercia with the large twin-tails designs, which is general rather the reason for the high subsonic AoA
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The operational part of the ‘Exercise Indradhanush-2007′ began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated.[emphasis DID’s] The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Yes, against Tornados.

Talking about the Eurofighter. Although not completly optimized for subsonic AoA, the Eurofighter still performs on par or better than the American F-1X fighters in that regard. The heavier Su-30 with it's inferior thrust to weight ratio and wing-loading will not suddenly become incredibly agile just because you put TVC on it.
 
Last edited:

Scratch

Captain
I will argue that TVC is not the prime source of high energy maneuvering capability and therefore certainly not the way to now magically dodge missiles.
Dodging an AAM, i.e. kinematiclly defeating it and not at the edge of the missile performance envelope were it merely becomes outrunning it, will require high speed and the ability to quickly change vectors. This is to create a lot of angular movement from the missiles perspective and therefore force it to adjust it's flight path, wich in turn forces it to bleed energy, i.e. speed. (Or overpower the tracking rate of the seeker)
Simply doing backflips in place or flying min radius turns at 250knots won't create any issues for the missile, as it doesn't care if it hits the plane on the nose or tail and will still fly to the same spoint it space.
So we're back to maneuvering at or above cornering velocity, at which probably all fighters will achive their max Gs at moderate AoAs of maybe 20 to 35° perhaps. Pulling the planform of your jet into the wind at or above 450 - 500kts will most certainly overstretch the design load factor of the jet.

I will also say that changing direction at those speeds, to this day, relies mainly on aerodynamic means, as propulsion tech and concepts are not yet at a point were they become the main source of a change of direction. Propulsion merely provides the fast enough movement through the air for those aerodynamic means to be effective.

Now there are of course issues with changing the attitude by aerodynamic means. Deflecting the controlls is to create lift in one way to change attitude. That will naturally create induced drag. However, using the long lever arms of distant coupled canards or far aft mounted stabs will reduce the impact. And I'm still not convinced that these penalties are meaningfully bigger then the penalties incurred by the increased weight or thrust loss through deflection in TVC equipped jets.

In the cruise /"low intensity maneuvering" phase TVC has some merrits in providing a trim capability without the drag, or RCS rise, of a deflected surface. Or in controlling the jet when supersonic, were I think there are minor issues with using conventional controlls. But I wonder if the rather complex TVC tech employed today is the best option, or if a (less powerfull) "hot gas injection" system, that should use less mechanical parts, woudn't do better, and simpler.

Furthermore I do not see that direct connection between supercruise and supermaneuverability just because the two things came about roughly at the same point in time. You're not going to be supermaneuverable (in the sense of doing backflips) at supersonic speeds. For obvious reasons.

Finally, pointing your nose quickly under allmost all circumstances is indeed the domain of TVC aircraft. What has always been my issue is that if instead of driving around the corner aerodynamicly you are trying to square it with your planform against the wind, it is a risky, last ditch move.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
If I remember correctly TVC is about acute attack angles without stalling the engine like pointing the nose of the plane while flying horizontally.
TVC or OVT is simply a steerable Nozzle on the aft of the jet engine! with that thrust vectoring you can for instance greatly increase your pitch transition, this is always beneficial though it does cost a little weight and a little fuel. It does make the F-22 number one, without thrust vectoring the F-22 would most certainly lose its mojo?

:D
 

b787

Captain
Yes, against Tornados.

Talking about the Eurofighter. Although not completly optimized for subsonic AoA, the Eurofighter still performs on par or better than the American F-1X fighters in that regard. The heavier Su-30 with it's inferior thrust to weight ratio and wing-loading will not suddenly become incredibly agile just because you put TVC on it.
You are being dishonest, in that website, Tornados are not mentioned. They compare the Typkoon and Su-30MKi
 

b787

Captain
I will argue that TVC is not the prime source of high energy maneuvering capability and therefore certainly not the way to now magically dodge missiles.
Dodging an AAM, i.e. kinematiclly defeating it and not at the edge of the missile performance envelope were it merely becomes outrunning it, will require high speed and the ability to quickly change vectors.


.
I think the TVC issue is related to affordability, the F-22 was built in a time when US could afford it, Russia now is building the same platform Su-27 which is today an old aircraft, the first Su-27 was flown in 1977 and the last definitive prototype in 1981, the PAKFA is still not entering service so adding TVC nozzles is useful to these old platforms.

Europe did not do it because of affordability too, they do not need extra expenses.

But definitively supersonic maneuvering will improve with TVC nozzles, as well as post stall handling.

But the Russians came to the conclusion super cruising was more needed, so they made Su-35S, why? simple the new SU-35 will fly fast reducing exposure to AAM`s no escape zone.

So an engine like 117s is quiet useful, the Su-30SM are more strikers than fighters and the true bomber the SU-34 has niether supercruise capability niether TVC nozzles, simple logic.
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
You are being dishonest, in that website, Tornados are not mentioned. They compare the Typkoon and Su-30MKi

It's a years old misquote. If you read any other comments about the excercise they cleary state that the Eurofighter was superior.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I will argue that TVC is not the prime source of high energy maneuvering capability and therefore certainly not the way to now magically dodge missiles.
Dodging an AAM, i.e. kinematiclly defeating it and not at the edge of the missile performance envelope were it merely becomes outrunning it, will require high speed and the ability to quickly change vectors. This is to create a lot of angular movement from the missiles perspective and therefore force it to adjust it's flight path, wich in turn forces it to bleed energy, i.e. speed. (Or overpower the tracking rate of the seeker)
Simply doing backflips in place or flying min radius turns at 250knots won't create any issues for the missile, as it doesn't care if it hits the plane on the nose or tail and will still fly to the same spoint it space.
So we're back to maneuvering at or above cornering velocity, at which probably all fighters will achive their max Gs at moderate AoAs of maybe 20 to 35° perhaps. Pulling the planform of your jet into the wind at or above 450 - 500kts will most certainly overstretch the design load factor of the jet.

I will also say that changing direction at those speeds, to this day, relies mainly on aerodynamic means, as propulsion tech and concepts are not yet at a point were they become the main source of a change of direction. Propulsion merely provides the fast enough movement through the air for those aerodynamic means to be effective.

Now there are of course issues with changing the attitude by aerodynamic means. Deflecting the controlls is to create lift in one way to change attitude. That will naturally create induced drag. However, using the long lever arms of distant coupled canards or far aft mounted stabs will reduce the impact. And I'm still not convinced that these penalties are meaningfully bigger then the penalties incurred by the increased weight or thrust loss through deflection in TVC equipped jets.

In the cruise /"low intensity maneuvering" phase TVC has some merrits in providing a trim capability without the drag, or RCS rise, of a deflected surface. Or in controlling the jet when supersonic, were I think there are minor issues with using conventional controlls. But I wonder if the rather complex TVC tech employed today is the best option, or if a (less powerfull) "hot gas injection" system, that should use less mechanical parts, woudn't do better, and simpler.

Furthermore I do not see that direct connection between supercruise and supermaneuverability just because the two things came about roughly at the same point in time. You're not going to be supermaneuverable (in the sense of doing backflips) at supersonic speeds. For obvious reasons.

Finally, pointing your nose quickly under allmost all circumstances is indeed the domain of TVC aircraft. What has always been my issue is that if instead of driving around the corner aerodynamicly you are trying to square it with your planform against the wind, it is a risky, last ditch move.

Let me say that OVT is a game changer on every aircraft that incorporates a reliable serviceable engine and FCS. OVT works in concert with control surfaces of the aircraft and in fact enhance their effectiveness and increase their maneuverability over the same or similar aircraft without OVT, and that friends is a great thing?

But, if I were to redesign the Raptor today, I would likely incorporate an uprated pair of F135s, with the flat nozzles of the YF-23. The aircraft would be bigger if slightly less maneuverable, incorporate more internal weapons and fuel, and an HMS system???

I would push the top end of the speed envelope, while working to retain the very fine flying characteristics and manners of the Raptor, I would push supercruise past Mach 2 if possible, but avoid the temptation to go for VMAX. Keep it simple, refine what we know, learn from the F-35 and incorporate the more practical aspects of that aircraft, while avoiding the temptation to overcomplicate in order to achieve some super wazoo status.

The rush to sixth gen is extremely premature, the fifth gen well is wide and deep and should be plumbed to its depths, if it made some of you happy to refer to my "heavy Raptor" as sixth gen??? go ahead, but I would take firm steps to keep the objectives reasonable and attainable, with what we now know about aerodynamics we could come very close to the Raptors supermaneuverability, while increasing meaningfull payload, and supercruise. Stealth would still be an alpha priority, as you can't shoot what you can't target and lock on to.
 
Top