Aerodynamics thread

latenlazy

Brigadier
Actually, when an aircraft begins to increase its positive angle of attack, the canards goes increasing higher than the wing so that the vortex generated are always above the wings. Even at zero angle of attack, the vortex could still be above the wings if the canards are located at a higher level than the wing like the J-10, Rafale etc. J-20 has, just in front of the canards, vortex generators at the side engine inlets for both the older and newer prototypes.
After a certain point the difference between the canard deflection angle and angle of attack are too great for the downwash effect to occur. If the canard sustains the difference in angle between itself and the wing it will stall out first, which then disrupts the downwash which then stalls the wing. That or the canard has to deflect downward to prevent over pitching. Both induce a lot of extra drag that isn't overcompensated by extra lift, which hurts the lift drag ratio. LERXes don't have this problem because they generate vortices a different way, but their problem is that they don't begin generating vortices until they've reached a certain angle of attack, and (if I'm not wrong about this point) the inability to terminate that down wash means that an aircraft will have to employ other draggier methods to prevent over pitching. My understanding is the PAK-FA tried to get the best of both worlds by adopting LEVCONS. I suspect the J-20s design may be a different approach to achieve that same purpose.
 
Last edited:

Engineer

Major
After a certain point the difference between the canard deflection angle and angle of attack are too great for the downwash effect to occur. If the canard sustains the difference in angle between itself and the wing it will stall out first, which then disrupts the downwash which then stalls the wing. That or the canard has to deflect downward to prevent over pitching. Both induce a lot of extra drag that isn't overcompensated by extra lift, which hurts the lift drag ratio. LERXes don't have this problem because they generate vortices a different way, but their problem is that they don't begin generating vortices until they've reached a certain angle of attack, and (if I'm not wrong about this point) the inability to terminate that down wash means that an aircraft will have to employ other draggier methods to prevent over pitching. My understanding is the PAK-FA tried to get the best of both worlds by adopting LEVCONS. I suspect the J-20s design may be a different approach to achieve that same purpose.

It is hard to understand how canard works because everything about the canard is so counter-intuitive. Canard deflects downward when the aircraft is at large angle-of-attack, which reduces pitching moment. In that situation, the angle-of-attack that canard makes with respect to the airstream is actually small.

You can imagine that the canard always sits around low angle-of-attack regardless of how the aircraft orientates. As a result, the amount of lift contributes by the canard is relatively constant. This differs from vortex lift of a leading extension which is affected more by angle-of-attack. For that same reason, canard also produces lower drag. I have highlighted the relevant curves in red in the following graphs.

FCoK1px.png


Tailplane cannot compete with canard at high angle-of-attack, because tailplane would need to go into even bigger angle-of-attack to force the aircraft's nose down. The problem in that situation is that the tailplane goes into stall, and pitch control is lost.

As to LEVCON on that PAKFA, that's actually the poor man's solution to canard. Canard affects more variables, so is more difficult to design, more expensive, and can result in deadly consequences if not designed properly.
 
Last edited:

F-15

Banned Idiot
Incorrect.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Downwash from canard actually improves performance.

actually sir pretty you do not understand, the canard increase lift in two ways one is and area of lift, of course if you add two wings you get more lift, if you add a canard to a wing then you add the lift of the canard to the lift of the wing you get more total lift.
However the lift is not so straight, it is not 1+1=2 but 1+1=1.97, there are loses, in fact the picture you are posting comes from a good french friend of mine, who happens to love Rafale and who has much deeper understanding than you.

The lift the canards generates only really increases at high alpha.
 

Engineer

Major
actually sir pretty you do not understand, the canard increase lift in two ways one is and area of lift, of course if you add two wings you get more lift, if you add a canard to a wing then you add the lift of the canard to the lift of the wing you get more total lift.
However the lift is not so straight, it is not 1+1=2 but 1+1=1.97, there are loses, in fact the picture you are posting comes from a good french friend of mine, who happens to love Rafale and who has much deeper understanding than you.

The lift the canards generates only really increases at high alpha.
Yes, increases, with lift still being generated at low angle-of-attack which is indicated by the diagram. Some want to believe that nothing is generated at all, and the graph does not agree with those people.
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
It

As to LEVCON on that PAKFA, that's actually the poor man's solution to canard. Canard affects more variables, so is more difficult to design, more expensive, and can result in deadly consequences if not designed properly.

PAKFA can roll by using the deflection of the LEVCONS

2ff74d3574ee761dd58e8e9ff019f13c.jpg


actually your are writing only stupidities, LEVCONs can be used as roll and pitch contributors simply because as the vortex burst the center of pressure moves too affecting the pitch movement of any aircraft, the LEVCON is basically a leading edge extension LEX that generates a lift wing variations that allow even roll the aircraft with the use of LEVCONS
 

Engineer

Major
PAKFA can roll by using the deflection of the LEVCONS

2ff74d3574ee761dd58e8e9ff019f13c.jpg


actually your are writing only stupidities, LEVCONs can be used as roll and pitch contributors simply because as the vortex burst the center of pressure moves too affecting the pitch movement of any aircraft, the LEVCON is basically a leading edge extension LEX that generates a lift wing variations that allow even roll the aircraft with the use of LEVCONS

Yes, roll can be controlled by LEVCON, but the control over pitch-moment does not match that of a long-coupled canard. Canard can be positioned far from the center of gravity, so enjoys the advantages of a longer moment arm.
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
Yes, increases, with lift still being generated at low angle-of-attack which is indicated by the diagram. Some want to believe that nothing is generated at all, and the graph does not agree with those people.

you are really that think brained? the canard vortex system is useless at cruise flight, it kills lift, when you get the diagram, of course with a second wing, the Mirage which is a tailles has higher total lift, that is what the graphs shows.

But the Vortex is basically as Thunderchief said the lift the canard loses, do you know why wing fences exist? why wings highly swept use wing fences or dog teeth?

The Delta wing is only capturing the low pressure lift vortex that the canard is losing
 

Engineer

Major
you are really that think brained? the canard vortex system is useless at cruise flight, it kills lift, when you get the diagram, of course with a second wing, the Mirage which is a tailles has higher total lift, that is what the graphs shows.

But the Vortex is basically as Thunderchief said the lift the canard loses, do you know why wing fences exist? why wings highly swept use wing fences or dog teeth?

The Delta wing is only capturing the low pressure lift vortex that the canard is losing

As the graph shows, vortex contributes to lift, even at level flight. In those same set of graphs, we also see the C[sub]L[/sub] vs. C[sub]D[/sub] curve, showing that canard has less drag at high angle-of-attack but no drag penalties at low angle-of-attack. The graphs illustrate the reality which disagrees with people's claims.
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
Yes, roll can be controlled by LEVCON, but the control over pitch-moment does not match that of a long-coupled canard. Canard can be positioned far from the center of gravity, so enjoys the advantages of a longer moment arm.

Longer arm means also lower vortex interaction so you get a longer arm but you lose lif, in LCA which is tailless you just need to move the wing forward and add the LEVCON, so pretty much there is no advantage plus the LEVCON generates less drag.

With this listen, it does not mean a fighter is better, canards and LEVCONS are only fixes none is superior, everything depends what the designer wants, at the end of the day is the lighter the fighter it gets, lower wing loading and higher thrust to weight ratio what matters
 
Last edited:
Top