AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Another point I notice while re-reading your post is that you have not placed consideration of the space freed from not requiring a specialized munition room compartmentalized to store the high power 10" rounds if you switched it with rail gun since they are basically a rod of iron and can be kept in the galley if the navy wants to without any fear of them miss firing and going off.

Considering power generation capacity (and thus ship size) is arguably the most important determinant of whether a railgun can be fit onto a ship or not, I consider what you've mentioned as a relatively ancillary factor.

What is important is the net exchange of volume and weight. Unless you are suggesting that switching to a rail gun will allow a ship's magazine to load an equal (or greater, whatever) amount of rounds in place of traditional warhead rounds to result in a drastic saving in weight or space that will free allow for sufficient power generation for said railgun, then the non explosive nature of rail gun rounds is really just an interesting footnote in the discussion.


The biggest hurdle to fitting railguns on burkes is power. Once we have news that burkes are going to have that capacity to generate sufficient power, then we can start looking at the additional benefits of railguns like what you mentioned.
But if none of the benefits of railguns can directly or indirectly change the power generation issue meaningfully, then they are a non factor at this point.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Considering power generation capacity (and thus ship size) is arguably the most important determinant of whether a railgun can be fit onto a ship or not, I consider what you've mentioned as a relatively ancillary factor.

What is important is the net exchange of volume and weight. Unless you are suggesting that switching to a rail gun will allow a ship's magazine to load an equal (or greater, whatever) amount of rounds in place of traditional warhead rounds to result in a drastic saving in weight or space that will free allow for sufficient power generation for said railgun, then the non explosive nature of rail gun rounds is really just an interesting footnote in the discussion.


The biggest hurdle to fitting railguns on burkes is power. Once we have news that burkes are going to have that capacity to generate sufficient power, then we can start looking at the additional benefits of railguns like what you mentioned.
But if none of the benefits of railguns can directly or indirectly change the power generation issue meaningfully, then they are a non factor at this point.

From the looks of the railgun rounds in the vid I believe it's half the size of conventional 10" rounds plus the rail gun rounds would only need minimum packaging for transport unlike 10" rounds so storage space would naturally be reduced for the same amount of rounds. As for mass I believe it would be the same or slightly lighter for railguns rounds due to comparative density in components (basically railgun rounds are a slab of iron) but I do not think weight would be an issue for a ship that size. With the extra space they can fit in a dedicated generator or capacitor for the railgun if they have to.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
From the looks of the railgun rounds in the vid I believe it's half the size of conventional 10" rounds plus the rail gun rounds would only need minimum packaging for transport unlike 10" rounds so storage space would naturally be reduced for the same amount of rounds. As for mass I believe it would be the same or slightly lighter for railguns rounds due to comparative density in components (basically railgun rounds are a slab of iron) but I do not think weight would be an issue for a ship that size. With the extra space they can fit in a dedicated generator or capacitor for the railgun if they have to.

Making a few assumptions there, which need to be challenged:
How big is the final "production" rail gun round compared to current 5" rounds. (The USN currently does not use 10" guns -- burkes are equipped with the 5" Mk-45s)
If the rail gun round is smaller, then how much smaller, and if a similar number of rounds are sought to be put onto a burke, we have to consider how big the rail gun itself is -- we must look at the net volume and weight change. It's no good if X number of rail gun rounds takes up only 80% of space and weight of X number of Mk-45 5" rounds if a rail gun is 150% larger and heavier than a Mk-45 (just throwing a number out there, I don't claim to know how big the rail gun will end up being) and leading to an overall increase in volume and weight.
And finally, if hypothetically the rail gun is the same volume and weight as the current Mk-45 and they are able to fit in the same number of rounds in half the space of the existing Mk-45 magazine -- well then, how much space and weight is that actually, and is that space and weight they free up enough to put a dedicated generator or capacity for the rail gun?


That's why I'm not seriously considering the potential of rail gun rounds as a weight/space saver in exchange for a generator very seriously, because there's a lot of other factors such as the size of the rail gun, the size of the final rail gun round, the size of the existing magazine, the size of a potential generator powerful enough to juice up said rail gun, etc that must all fit together for the effect of less complex rail gun rounds to yield any effect.

It's definitely something to keep in mind, but there's far too many unkown variables at play to use smaller or less complex rail gun rounds as a basepad for concluding the burke's will be able to haul a rail gun.
(Refitting existing burkes with a rail gun will be even harder considering they'll have to literally scoop out and redesign the entire structure of the forward bow, unless the USN specifically asks BAe to design a rail gun with similar weight characteristics and geometry to the Mk-45 -- which funnily enough, is another assumption that needs to be challenged).
 
Australian Hobart-Class Critics:

Minister for Finance and Minister for Defence – Joint Media Release – Putting the Air Warfare Destroyer program back on track

4 June 2014

Today we are announcing the way forward for the $8.5 billion Air Warfare Destroyer program, dealing with a range of unresolved structural and systemic issues that have remained unaddressed for too long.

When we came into Government we were confronted with advice about significant schedule delays and cost overruns in this program.

That was why in December 2013 we announced the establishment of an independent review into the Air Warfare Destroyer program.

Since then the Auditor General has also released a comprehensive review into aspects of this program, which also points to cost overruns at that time of over $300 million and various governance, capability and productivity issues.

The review led by former US Secretary of the Navy Professor Don Winter, has provided the Government with an independent assessment of the program’s costs, schedule and quality of performance as well as identified a range of solutions.

The Review report identified several causes for the cost and schedule issues, including problems with:

• The initial program plan;
• Inadequate government oversight;
• The Alliance structure’s capacity to manage the project and deal effectively with issues if and when they arose; and
• The performance and capabilities of ASC and major subcontractors.

The Government is totally committed to put this important Defence project back on track and to stop the growing cost and schedule overruns by implementing the recommendations for a Reform Strategy made by the Winter Review.

The Reform Strategy will:

• Improve shipbuilding productivity at the Air Warfare Destroyer shipbuilder ASC and its subcontractors BAE Systems, Forgacs and Navantia;
• Include the urgent insertion of an experienced shipbuilding management team into ASC; and
• After augmented shipbuilding capacity has been put in place, pursue the reallocation of blocks between shipyards to make the Air Warfare Destroyer program more sustainable.

The Government will immediately engage commercial and legal advisers to assist in implementing this Reform Strategy.

The implementation of the Reform Strategy will ensure that the Air Warfare Destroyer program returns to the effective and efficient delivery of this vital defence capability.

We are committed to working collaboratively and constructively with all stakeholders to ensure we realise both the national security benefits as well as the long term benefits of this program for the Australian shipbuilding industry in the most cost-effective and efficient way possible.

the link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


EDIT
more critics here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the transcript of hearings here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
A nice first image of an Raytheon AMDR-S undergoing testing.

The radar is meant to be a 14 foot array (4.2m), with each of those individual "blocks" being 2x2x2 feet. The picture seems to confirm the size of the array. AMDR-S for Flight III burke has remarkably similar in overall dimensions to 052D's 346A, although the latter probably has higher effective array area given it has similar overall height/width, but is square rather than octagon of AMDR-S, meaning more effective area for arrays.

In any case, nice to see USN's mainstay next generation radar.


tLO9MXX.jpg
 
Last edited:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I thought I would give some pictorial coverage to the commissioning of the INS Kolkata, D63, last month. It is something we have talked about, watched for, and waited for, for over 8 years here on this forum.

I have a full write up on the vessels, including their follow on Project 15B class at my
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
:


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


AEGIS and AEGIS-Like Vessels of the World said:
The INS Kolkata, D63, was finally officially commissioned on August 16, 2014, over eight years after her launch. Though technical problems with her main anti-air weaponry, the jointly Israeli-India developed Barak-8 missile appear to have been solved, production of the missiles has languished. Additional delays have been resulted from the July-September 2014 conflict between Hamas and Israel. Once shipped to Israel, the missiles will have to be installed, tested and trialed on the Kolkata. As a result, it is not expected that Kolkata will have a full compliment of 48 Barak-8 LR AAW armament now until sometime later in 2015.

Ultimately, the Barak-8 missiles will be produced in India for the numerous Indian vessels that intend to use them, which now includes all three Project 15A Kolkata destroyers, the follow-on class of four Project 15B destroyers, the new Project 17A FFGs (seven of which are planned to be built), the building indigenous INS Vikrant aircraft carrier, and the follow-on, 2nd indgenous Indian carrier.

Another concern for the INS Kolkata, in addition to not having her primary anti-air armament, is that she will go to sea without a Towed Array Sonar (TAS). The indigenous system did not meet Indian requirements and the Indian Navy is now ferverishly looking to purchase a system to integrate into the vessel from elsewhere. This means the vessel will have to rely on her helicopters and bow array for anti-submarine detection and targeting. Towed Array Sonars allow surface combatants to locate submarines at much longer range in varying sea conditions and depths.

Both of these issues, the long range anti-air armament, and the TAS are expected to be corrected and fully implemented into the following two vessels.

The second vessel, the INS Kochi, is now expected to go on her sea trails in late 2014 for commissioning in ealry 2015. The third, INS Chanaai, is to follow with commissioning planned in early 2016.

Having said all of this, the Kolkata Class's anti-surface armament is very strong. She has 16 VLS cells for the Indian Brahmos, long-range, super-sonic anti-surface/shipping missiles. In addition, with her two ASW helicopters, her two RBU-6000 ASW rocket systems, her ASW torpedos the armament they carry for anti-submarine warfare is also strong.

In addition, the Kolkata's state of the art sensors and Battle Management Systems, will significantly improve India's area air coverage at sea as well as the strength of multi-mission capabilities. Each vessel has cost India close to 1 billion U.S. dollars. The design was developed by the Indian Navy's Directorate of Naval Design, with detailed design developed by Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL). They are the largest naval vessels ever constructed at the Indian naval yards at Mazagon.

The 15A Kolkatas and the follow-on 15B class are intended to be the primary escorts for the new Indian Carriers, the INS Vikramaditya, and the INS Vikrant.

Here are a number of good picures of the commissioning, including Prime Minister Modi's attendance:



kolkata-comm-01.jpg

kolkata-comm-02.jpg

kolkata-comm-03.jpg

kolkata-comm-05.jpg

kolkata-comm-04.jpg

kolkata-comm-07.jpg

kolkata-comm-08.jpg

kolkata-comm-09.jpg

kolkata-comm-11.jpg

kolkata-comm-12.jpg

 
Last edited:

aksha

Captain
I thought I would give some pictorial coverage to the commissioning of the INS Kolkata, D63, last month. It is something we have talked about, watched for, and waited for, for over 8 years here on this forum.


kolkata-comm-12.jpg

[/center]
[video=youtube;nys7UtLNV90]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nys7UtLNV90[/video]

Intercept test validates Barak 8 air defense system maturity

Today at 07:20 (Israel time), Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), in collaboration with the Israeli Ministry of Defense (IMOD), conducted the first successful flight test of the Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System. On this test, held at the weapon test range in the Negev desert the system employed all the elements related to the naval and land-based variants of the system, including the phased array radar, battle management system, communications and the Barak-8 interceptor, which intercepted a manoeuvring air-breathing target representing an attacking combat aircraft.

The successful test validated the entire system which has already undergone exhaustive partial testing and simulations. The flight test has been delayed for months due to late arrival of parts of the propulsion systems, which have been released by India in the past months. Senior Indian officials attended the test. “This is an important milestone in the cooperation between India and Israel and in the development of the Barak-8 advanced air defense system” Dr. Avinash Chander, Head of DRDO and Scientific adviser to the Indian defense minister.
“The Barak-8 project expresses a constructive cooperation between the Indian DRDO, the Israeli DDR&D and both countries’ Defense Forces; together they have all pushed forward this important program, overcoming technological challenges and earning achievements along the way.” Rear Admiral (Res.) Ophir Shoham, head of Israel’s Research and Development directorate added.

Barak 8 provides high level of protection against a variety of aerial platforms and munitions including aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aircraft and sea-skimming missiles under all weather conditions. In addition to conventional sea skimming missiles, which fly in subsonic speed, Barak 8 is also designed to defeat advanced threats such as the supersonic cruise missiles such as the new CX-1 or Yakhont.

Its interceptor is a missile developed by RAFAEL, in collaboration with India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Other key elements are the advanced phased array multi mission radar, two-way data link, and flexible command and control system enabling the system to be used as an area defense system, by integrating several fire units, sensors and command centers into an air defense ‘networked mesh’.
The system is scheduled to go through an accelerated testing campaign in the next years, which will include more verification tests, and launches at sea launches. Some of the tests are expected to take place in India. Although the missile testing have only started, IAI officials are confident that the system could become operational in few months, as most of the system’s elements have been thoroughly tested, some are already installed on surface ships in India and Israel.


Barak 8 air defense systems have been marketed by IAI and DRDO for several years, and have orders worth several billion US$ from a number of countries on books. Apart from India and Israel, Azerbaijan reportedly became a customer for the system. IAI is offering the system as new installations on surface vessels, as well as an upgrading of existing Barak-1 systems, providing extended coverage, providing air defense of naval groups, rather than the point defense of the carrying vessel, provided by Barak-1. Barak-1 systems are currently operational with the Navies of India, Chile, Singapore and Israel.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

strange but the prpulsion system were the first to be developed as early as 2010.

another source,theres a better video on this link.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



thunderchief was right all thatt time about the rocket being not ready.
The INS Lahav (Saar V class) corvette was upgraded with the MF-STAR ADIR phased array radar, providing the vessel a critical sensor for the defense of Israel’s offshore gas drilling rigs located in the EEZ, at the range of Gaza rockets and Hezbollah Yakhont anti-ship missiles. The Navy has recently successfully practiced air defense against those thraets, using BARAK I missiles. Future weapons, such as Barak 8, C-DOME and David’s Sling will provide more hermetic defense from such threats. Photo: Israel Navy
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


its rocket motor made by BEL.
CiYPhFG.jpg
 
Last edited:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Intercept test validates Barak 8 air defense system maturity

"I remember people in this forum saying that israel has already equipped its ships with barak 8,while the indians have not done so because they were incompetent to absorb the technology"
Aksha, I do not believe it was so much that Indian was incompetent...and any broad statement to that effect would have been challenged by Moderators here on SD if we had seen it.

It was certainly however the case that India was not ready yet at that time and their schedule slipped. Which is not abnormal when you have high tech development occurring at two places where they must then integrate them.

I am glad to see that the procurement, logistical and whatever technical difficulties are being worked out (as we knew they would) and that hopefully soon the Kolkata will have a full compliment of its long-range Barak-8 missiles loaded in its VLS cells.

Very good news for the Indian Navy.
 

aksha

Captain
was india not ready?
the indians supplied the dual pulse motor in 2010(you will find the article in naval technology,will post it soon)and shipped it to israel in early 2011.
additionally the barak8 benefited hugely from the akash missile program,the ball was in the israeli's court.they said that they integrated the rocket with their saar corvettes which was a lie(the IAI guy says that the indians supplied the motor only recently) which you will find from the quote i posted,

the indians had more experience from the akash programme.

so were the indians ready , of course they were.the seeker just wasn't ready at that time.
 

aksha

Captain
Aksha, I do not believe it was so much that Indian was incompetent...and any broad statement to that effect would have been challenged by Moderators here on SD if we had seen it.

It was certainly however the case that India was not ready yet at that time and their schedule slipped. Which is not abnormal when you have high tech development occurring at two places where they must then integrate them.

I am glad to see that the procurement, logistical and whatever technical difficulties are being worked out (as we knew they would) and that hopefully soon the Kolkata will have a full compliment of its long-range Barak-8 missiles loaded in its VLS cells.

Very good news for the Indian Navy.
i sincerely appologize for ,for accusing my fellow members ,and for doubting the mods.
will be more careful in future,won't post anything without verifying.it was a mistake.a mistake[B i will never commit again.[/B]
will reddit my statement.
sincerely sorry
hoping for everybody's forgiveness
 
Last edited:
Top