27 dead, in Kunming railway station attack

chuck731 said:

No. That was an erroneous estimate made by the CIA. At height of USSR the CIA estimated the soviet union's GDP was about half that of the US. This was based on extrapolations from known levels of soviet capital investment in the previous decades, and assuming Soviet Union can translate capital investment into productivity gain with similar degree of efficiency as the west.

Soviet Union herself in Gorbachev era admitted soviet economy at its relative peak was really only 1/4 the size of American economy. Soviet Union's large capital investment in the previous two decade had been poorly allocated and much wasted, and did not translate to anything like the productivity gain that the US had forecasted. So at the end of two decades of massive investment the soviet economy was still much smaller than it appeared.

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Interesting and thanks for the information, but was Gorbachev talking about nominal or PPP GDP?

Blackstone said:

Interesting and thanks for the information, but was Gorbachev talking about nominal or PPP GDP?

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Since Soviet Union conduct little Ruble transaction with the west and maintained the value of Ruble by diktate at an artificially high exchange rate to the dollar, Soviet GDP by PPP would be lower than that GDP at nominal exchange rate. So Gorbachev is likely talking about PPP.

Kunming massacre gang 'tried to become jihadists overseas' before station attack
Attackers acted in desperation after failed attempt to leave the country, says Yunnan Communist Party chief

Attackers who launched a brutal massacre at a train station in Kunming acted in desperation after a failed attempt to leave the country and become jihadists overseas, a Chinese official was on Wednesday quoted as saying.

Both Beijing and Washington have described Saturday’s attack in Kunming which killed 29 people and injured 143 as terrorism. China blames separatists from its restive far-western region of Xinjiang, home to the mainly Muslim Uygur minority.

Qin Guangrong, the Communist Party chief of Yunnan province which includes Kunming, said the eight attackers travelled to his province and Guangdong, which borders Hong Kong, as they tried to leave the country, China Radio International said, in a report that was later deleted from its website.

“These eight individuals originally wanted to join jihad,” Qin was quoted as saying.

“They couldn’t get out at Yunnan so tried to get out in other places, but they also couldn’t leave Guangdong, so once again they returned to Yunnan.”

When the group failed to escape through southern Yunnan’s Honghe county – which borders Vietnam – they hatched the plan to target either the frontier area or Kunming’s transport terminals, the report quoted Qin as saying.

His comments had some similarities with an earlier report by US-funded broadcaster Radio Free Asia (RFA), which quoted sources as saying the eight attackers travelled from Xinjiang to Yunnan in order to cross the border into Laos on their way to seek sanctuary elsewhere.

RFA’s sources said the eight may have been Uygurs fleeing a police crackdown in Xinjiang’s Hotan prefecture.

The sources said they could have given up their attempt to leave after another group of about 30 Uygurs was detained in the border area in September.

It quoted a Uygur in Kunming as saying they may have decided to go on a killing spree to avenge the deaths of others in Xinjiang.

“They were likely reacting to the extra-judicial killings that have occurred about a dozen times last year in Xinjiang,” the Uygur was quoted as saying. “Their message to the government was, ‘We can do something also’.”

The assault that state media dubbed “China’s 9/11” has shocked the nation, and led to security being strengthened across the country.

The public security ministry said an eight-strong gang carried out the attack, with three suspects captured on Monday and five assailants shot at the scene, four of them fatally.



-----Note the underlined bold words. I was reading the wiki profile of Rebiya Kadeer the other day after the attacks and I recalled the word "radio free asia" so I double checked and went back to the wiki and found it here:


Under imprisonment:
"In 1996, her husband and Uyghur independence activist Sidiq Rouzi left China for the United States, working as a broadcaster for the US radio stations Radio Free Asia and Voice of America." Kadeer's failure to denounce Rouzi's anti-China activities and repeated polemics against the government's ethnic policies in the national parliament led her not to be reelected to the National People's Consultative Conference in 1998.[3] Although large newspapers such as the People's Daily or Xinjiang Daily downplay news about separatism or terrorism in Xinjiang, trusted government employees (as Kadeer once was) have access to neican ("internal reference reports"), which freely report on issues of concern to national security."


----Makes you wonder how radio free asia got their insider intelligence so fast or how they already presumed the attackers were seeking sanctuary on the borders before the attacks. Lots of wild conspiracy thoughts after reading this.

Both Beijing and Washington have described Saturday’s attack in Kunming which killed 29 people and injured 143 as terrorism. China blames separatists from its restive far-western region of Xinjiang, home to the mainly Muslim Uygur minority.

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Thank you! This is a great start.

If I remember correct, when I was in GuangZhou, the regular street patrol force, police booth and the security at the train station did not carry any firearms, not even the 9mm revolver. I think only the police in cruisers (SUV or sedans) that patrol an area carried firearms.

ahho said:

If I remember correct, when I was in GuangZhou, the regular street patrol force, police booth and the security at the train station did not carry any firearms, not even the 9mm revolver. I think only the police in cruisers (SUV or sedans) that patrol an area carried firearms.

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I think up until the Kunming attack, Chinese police could have been split into 2 or 3 categories.

You have your beat cops who do patrols and respond to emergency calls. These guys and gals are always armed with sidearms and are what you typically think of when one mentions police.

Another group, which could be considered a division of beat cops, or a 3rd branch are the rapid reaction units. These are part SWAT part riot police, and are employed for major incidents. These guys normally are kitted out in riot gear or black SWAT guy and have both anti-riot gear and assault rifles and the such in the back of their vans which they choose upon deployment depending on the situation.

This is a specialist division which you typically won't see on the streets unless something major has happened or if certain bigwigs were in town.

The other main branch of Chinese police are the clerical/ceremonial staff. These are the guys, and more often women, who man booths and patrol at airports and train stations and other important sites, who man reception decks at police stations and other 'low risk' postings.

These officers serve mostly as advisors and honour guards and very seldomly carry any sort of weaponry, not even battons or pepper spray never mind stun guys or firearms, and more critically, may not have the training and experience to employ most of those weapons proficiently even if issued.

I think few people, even within China (other than the terrorists) notice or care about these differences. But these are real and important differences within the police, and I think that was the main reason why there were so many police casualties a few months ago when terrorists attacked police stations in Xinjiang - the officers on duty in the station were largely unarmed clerical staff, who made easy targets.

The recent reports coming out of Xinjiang where similar attacks have resulted in large terrorist casualties for little or no loss on the police would suggest to me that there was a review and policy change, whereby either the clerical police were being issued with firearms as standard, or beat cops and/or rapid reaction teams were being left on standby in police stations in Xinjiang. So when the terrorists launched new attacks hoping to slaughter unarmed (often female) clerical police staff, they instead found themselves staring down the barrels of the guns of street cops or SWAT teams, who were more than happy to get some payback for their fallen comrades.

I think the recent heavy losses on the terrorists when they went after targets in Xinjiang was one of the main driving forces behind the Kunming attack.

The error Chinese authorities made was in assuming that the violence would only be limited to Xinjiang and did not apply the chances they made to policing in Xinjiang on a national level.

I would expect that oversight to have been made right with great haste, so this sort of thing should never happen again, or at the very least the civilian casualties should be far smaller if it did.

ahho said:

If I remember correct, when I was in GuangZhou, the regular street patrol force, police booth and the security at the train station did not carry any firearms, not even the 9mm revolver. I think only the police in cruisers (SUV or sedans) that patrol an area carried firearms.

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Jeff Head said:

In the US, the local police level, the police are of course armed. And because of terrorism and heavy drug traffickers, most local Police Departments, particularly in larger cities now have Special Weapons and Tactics Teams (SWAT).

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I would be surprised if China did not have Provincial level forces and of course, regular military forces that could and would respond in the event of larger crisis. With this incident, it sounds like the local police responded and killed the attacking terrorists with gunfire.

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And you can tell the two type of police by their uniforms. The blue shirts are called 片警， are usually not well trained in combat type situations, lightly armed or unarmed, form the majority of the police force. They do patrols, guard public places, help sort out neighborhood issues, write tickets and call for backup when things got serious. I don't think they actually have the authority to make arrest, since they tend to just hold people in their spot until their backups arrive. There tons of videos online of they acting out against them, while the police are more or less powerless until their backups arrive. There are running jokes about they have less combat power than chengguans, and there several case of blue shirt police beat up by chengguan when mediating disputes.




The other type is black uniformed 干警，would actually being through real police academy training and are armed with weapons. Would are the guys actually got to investigate criminal activities, serious issues that might turn violent, and backup 片警 when things turn serious. I think these guys are actually the equivalent to police in the west in terms training, equipment and authority. But when things are really serious, they will call the PAP for help.



As for PAP, it's the most heavily armed police units. And unlike regular police, it's not a lifetime career post but a service term of a few years similar to the military. They do have a branch for internal security, and most serves as backups and sharpshooters for the police units. They are makeup most of China's firefighting force as well as serve as guards of Tiananmen Square and surrounding government ministries.



Which the Kunming incidents, I think the blue shirts will eventually get phased out for providing security in public place. And have the more competent black uniformed police do the job. It's more expensive, and the will be boring for them, but it's necessary for sudden emergencies. Also have a PAP unit stationed in or near busy public places such as train stations would be a good idea. (They do that for Beijing, but I don't see it elsewhere.)

*note, it appears the uniform distinction between the two no long applies all the time. But the distinction in roles is still present.

News:
3 of the terrorists were already caught by the police in Shadian Town, a Muslim settlement in Yunnan, when they were preparing for a bomb attack on Feb 27. The rest of them escaped and went to Kunming by car.

I wonder how the police in Muslim settlements works except Xinjiang. It must be a big mistake that they did not report the dangerous event to Kunming. If the terrorists have a bigger organization, the other members will make new attack.

luhai said:

And you can tell the two type of police by their uniforms. The blue shirts are called 片警， are usually not well trained in combat type situations, lightly armed or unarmed, form the majority of the police force. They do patrols, guard public places, help sort out neighborhood issues, write tickets and call for backup when things got serious. I don't think they actually have the authority to make arrest, since they tend to just hold people in their spot until their backups arrive. There tons of videos online of they acting out against them, while the police are more or less powerless until their backups arrive. There are running jokes about they have less combat power than chengguans, and there several case of blue shirt police beat up by chengguan when mediating disputes.

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The other type is black uniformed 干警，would actually being through real police academy training and are armed with weapons. Would are the guys actually got to investigate criminal activities, serious issues that might turn violent, and backup 片警 when things turn serious. I think these guys are actually the equivalent to police in the west in terms training, equipment and authority. But when things are really serious, they will call the PAP for help.
View attachment 9401
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As for PAP, it's the most heavily armed police units. And unlike regular police, it's not a lifetime career post but a service term of a few years similar to the military. They do have a branch for internal security, and most serves as backups and sharpshooters for the police units. They are makeup most of China's firefighting force as well as serve as guards of Tiananmen Square and surrounding government ministries.
View attachment 9403
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Which the Kunming incidents, I think the blue shirts will eventually get phased out for providing security in public place. And have the more competent black uniformed police do the job. It's more expensive, and the will be boring for them, but it's necessary for sudden emergencies. Also have a PAP unit stationed in or near busy public places such as train stations would be a good idea. (They do that for Beijing, but I don't see it elsewhere.)

*note, it appears the uniform distinction between the two no long applies all the time. But the distinction in roles is still present.

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Very interesting and informative, thank you for sharing. What are the two police officers in the last picture equipped with? I am guessing it is neither a pesticide sprayer nor a flame thrower!

RickHunter said:

News:
3 of the terrorists were already caught by the police in Shadian Town, a Muslim settlement in Yunnan, when they were preparing for a bomb attack on Feb 27. The rest of them escaped and went to Kunming by car.

I wonder how the police in Muslim settlements works except Xinjiang. It must be a big mistake that they did not report the dangerous event to Kunming. If the terrorists have a bigger organization, the other members will make new attack.

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Terrorist activities are not an everyday thing in China, like in Iraq or Pakistan, so the level security in certain areas are lower or more depends on how the authority felt the need for it. It also depends on the MSS intelligence gathering as well.