2019 India-Pakistani border clash

ougoah · Mar 3, 2019

More blobs and out of focus shots used to make conclusions.

There's no reason why an aim120c or sd10 cannot shoot down a su30mki at bvr or a good pilot in a jf-17 take down a mki wvr. This is why there's more much focus on avionics, missiles, and stealth. A budget fighter with a good radar can easily take out a fighter several times more expensive using a modern aam. Rafale gives iaf better avionics and meteor. It's not stealth but it'll be quite an improvement over mki. If they used mki, it doesn't seem like they exploited it's superior range and payload.

SteelBird · Mar 3, 2019

Dolcevita said:
So can we say we have a confirmed JF-17 kill as there has been no denial and practically no controversy surrounding the fact of downed Mig-21? If yes, what weapons was used? Under what situation and any additional information available?

If not, why?

I wanna further clarify one thing is that up to now we don't have hard proof that the aircraft that killed the MiG-21 was a JF-17. Only Pakistan claims that they shot down IAF MiG-21 Bison by JF-17, no missile in use was confirmed. The Indian claims to down PAF's F-16 by showing a AIM-120's debris. Pakistan denied it and claim the serial number of that debris was of Taiwan. Again, Taiwan denied that it was their missile.

That's all the claims and we'll break it down. The most advanced aircraft in PAF arsenal is F-16 and the 2nd one is JF-17. However, there's one rule in the F-16's end user contract that only allow PAF to use their F-16 against terrorist in Afghanistan (Sic! why buy an aircraft that you're not allowed to use). In this case, if PAF used their F-16 against Indian target, they violated the terms in the end user contract. They'll have problem with uncle Sam. If not F-16, the only aircraft that can take on IAF would be JF-17. That's why no one denied the claim. Pakistan actively promote export of the JF-17, there's no reason that PAF doesn't send their state of the art aircraft for a live advertisement unless they have no confidence of the aircraft at all.

siegecrossbow · Mar 3, 2019

SteelBird said:
I wanna further clarify one thing is that up to now we don't have hard proof that the aircraft that killed the MiG-21 was a JF-17. Only Pakistan claims that they shot down IAF MiG-21 Bison by JF-17, no missile in use was confirmed. The Indian claims to down PAF's F-16 by showing a AIM-120's debris. Pakistan denied it and claim the serial number of that debris was of Taiwan. Again, Taiwan denied that it was their missile.

That's all the claims and we'll break it down. The most advanced aircraft in PAF arsenal is F-16 and the 2nd one is JF-17. However, there's one rule in the F-16's end user contract that only allow PAF to use their F-16 against terrorist in Afghanistan (Sic! why buy an aircraft that you're not allowed to use). In this case, if PAF used their F-16 against Indian target, they violated the terms in the end user contract. They'll have problem with uncle Sam. If not F-16, the only aircraft that can take on IAF would be JF-17. That's why no one denied the claim. Pakistan actively promote export of the JF-17, there's no reason that PAF doesn't send their state of the art aircraft for a live advertisement unless they have no confidence of the aircraft at all.

According to the tweet I linked the AIM-120C debris in question was recovered 100 kilometers away from where the dogfight took place. It is dubious whether it is the same missile that downed the MIG-21 too.

Deleted member 13312 · Mar 3, 2019

ougoah said:
More blobs and out of focus shots used to make conclusions.

There's no reason why an aim120c or sd10 cannot shoot down a su30mki at bvr or a good pilot in a jf-17 take down a mki wvr. This is why there's more much focus on avionics, missiles, and stealth. A budget fighter with a good radar can easily take out a fighter several times more expensive using a modern aam. Rafale gives iaf better avionics and meteor. It's not stealth but it'll be quite an improvement over mki. If they used mki, it doesn't seem like they exploited it's superior range and payload.

That is really not the problem here, the main issue is whether a Su-30MKI was actually shot down by a JF-17 in Kashmir. And people are resorting to all sorts of unreliable facts and preformed opinions to forward their own respective agendas.

Any fighter can knock out another fighter irrespective of how obsolete or advance they are if given the chance.

localizer · Mar 3, 2019

Viktor Jav said:
That is really not the problem here, the main issue is whether a Su-30MKI was actually shot down by a JF-17 in Kashmir. And people are resorting to all sorts of unreliable facts and preformed opinions to forward their own respective agendas.

Any fighter can knock out another fighter irrespective of how obsolete or advance they are if given the chance.

Most important thing now is for the India populace to believe that they did indeed shoot down an F-16 with Mig-21 and that Paks pissed off the US. It's the only way to deescalate.

Deleted member 13312 · Mar 3, 2019

localizer said:
Most important thing now is for the India populace to believe that they did indeed shoot down an F-16 with Mig-21 and that Paks pissed off the US. It's the only way to deescalate.

That applies in equal measures to some of the posters I have seen here who are absolutely adamant that a Su-30MKI was indeed downed, regardless of how flimsy their "evidence" are.

Hyperwarp · Mar 3, 2019

I posted this on the 1st. I do not at all believe that is a Su-30MKI. The large LERX, should be a good give away,

Post #265

EDIT:

TerraN_EmpirE · Mar 4, 2019

So we have
Facts:
Confirmed mig21 downed. Pilot returned home.
Confirmed Mi17 downed. Crew deceased.

Claimed by India that it shot down a F16B. No Proof.
Claimed by Pakistan that it shot down a Su30. No Proof.

Opinion: This sounds like a pissing match. "Oh you say you shot down our fighter, well we shot down your best fighter"
"OH yeah well that's bull and we Shot down Your best fighter!"

Fact:
Debris of a Aim120C-5 from a FMS that Pakistan denies as it's. India isn't known to use the type.
India claims it must be F16.
Pakistan claims Taiwan? No proof as yet on origins. Type is known to be used by Pakistan.

Any thing I missed?

SteelBird · Mar 4, 2019

You might miss the Pakistan is not allowed to use their F16 against Indian target by the end user agreement. If proven to true, Pakistan will be pissed off by Uncle Sam. I think this is the reason India always insist F16 involvement.

Deino · Mar 4, 2019

Hyperwarp said:
I posted this on the 1st. I do not at all believe that is a Su-30MKI. The large LERX, should be a good give away,

Post #265

EDIT:

Fits to my post from the page before:

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/2019-india-pakistani-border-clash.t8429/page-36#post-544953

... and I must admit, I find it rather telling that exactly the ones, who cried and celebrated before "look, here's confirmation, a Su-30MKI is shot down" now deliberately ignore these news.

2019 India-Pakistani border clash

ougoah

Brigadier

SteelBird

Colonel

siegecrossbow

General

Deleted member 13312

Guest

localizer

Colonel

Deleted member 13312

Guest

Hyperwarp

Captain

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

SteelBird

Colonel

Deino

Lieutenant General