09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

Blitzo

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I believe 09IIIAs should already be using natural circulation reactors (I've read somewhere that 09IV SSBNs were the first ones to use a reactor with natural circulation).
(Type 09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread)

I don't expect a rim drive to be present on a nuclear submarine any time soon.
Going turboelectric would be good enough (and as Admiral Ma spoke a few years ago, it is likely to be applied on the next generation of nuclear submarines, which at the time we interpreted as 09V and 09VI) -- going turboelectric and shaftless (for a rim drive) would be a leap too far at this stage.
 

Michaelsinodef

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I believe 09IIIAs should already be using natural circulation reactors (I've read somewhere that 09IV SSBNs were the first ones to use a reactor with natural circulation).
(Type 09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread)

I don't expect a rim drive to be present on a nuclear submarine any time soon.
Going turboelectric would be good enough (and as Admiral Ma spoke a few years ago, it is likely to be applied on the next generation of nuclear submarines, which at the time we interpreted as 09V and 09VI) -- going turboelectric and shaftless (for a rim drive) would be a leap too far at this stage.
I mean there's a small chance it might leap ahead and be implemented like how emals replaced steam on 003.

Although yea, we should not expect it to be the case.

Edit: If anything, maybe it will be on some future variant of 09V and 09VI, like 09VA or 09VB
 

BoraTas

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Why is the Virginia as small as it is? If larger submarines have advantages like improved stealth and more room for everything from provisions to munitions, why did the US shrink its SSN size from Seawolf to Virginia?
Seawolf was found too expensive for the post-cold war world. The US Navy was also shifting its operations from open ocean to littorals (which is still a buzzword even today) after the disappearance of the Soviet Navy.

Also during the 90s, there were a lot of discussions about the usefulness of submarines. A lot of politicians and experts argued that they were only useful for ambushing enemy vessels in places where air power cannot reach easily. In 90s, active sonar and submarine acoustic stealth improved a lot. This led to a decrease in detection ranges of other submarines by submarines while the submarine detection ranges increased for surface ships. The submarine debate got heated more. Navy submarine branches went overdrive to justify their budgets. They started talking about land attack, special forces capabilities, search and rescue and intelligence gathering. They released photos of photographed shorelines (nice capability but ISR capability of subs is a joke compared to aircraft and satellites). The USN came up with Virginia. It was supposed to be cheaper, multi-role and littoral. The idea was

- Smaller hull and shallower max depth for cheapness.
- 8 660 mm torpedo tubes were ditched and 4 533 mm tubes were adopted. Also two torpedo room design of the Seawolf was abandoned and the Virginia returned to a single room design. The torpedo storage size and reloading speed were halved.
- Decrease in propulsion power to 40k hp from 57k hp.
- Magnetic signature reduction which the USN claimed important for littoral ops
- A sonar suite better suited for littoral operations. Likely centered at a higher frequency. Mine avoidance and extra high-frequency arrays were marketed a lot.
- New ESM suite, comms suite, and periscopes for ISR. The electronic periscope was named photonic mast for marketing purposes which is technically wrong.
- Standard dry deck shelter, DSRV, mini-sub carrying capability + 9 man lock-out room. Also, the torpedo room is reconfigurable for more spec ops soldiers
- Standard 12 tube VLS for Tomahawk.
- Silence is disputed. Most reports claim it is as silent as the Seawolf. I saw some reports about its cavitation speed being higher than the Seawolf. I also saw former sailors on Quora who claim the Seawolf is actually significantly harder to find at usual open ocean patrol speeds. The Seawolf's noise level may be scaling better with speed.

So Virginia was a product of the post-cold war era when budgets halved suddenly and the usefulness of subs was being debated heavily. The USN came with a sub that was very multi-role and cheaper. They sacrificed some capabilities to achieve that ofc.

I don't know what China should do. I think it should go for a more open ocean design rather than a design focused on litorals and spec ops. The PLAAF and conventional sub fleet can do everything China needs up to a 2000 km distance from China's shores. Conventional subs can go even further to roughly 4000 km. China's nuclear sub fleet should be about sneaking into the West Pacific and the Indian ocean to pick out US assets. If the US imposes a distant blockade, its vessels will be spread thin since it doesn't have enough ships for such a task. That is what you want to see as a sub. To engage carrier groups you need missiles. Modern active sonar is no joke. So I actually think a Sino-Yasen with 32-50 VLS and 6-8 torpedo tubes is a good idea. Torpedo tubes can be larger than 533 mm to accommodate UUVs and future missiles. Spec ops missions can be done by conventional subs with less risk too. UUV capability is a must for any modern design. They may very well change everything so not having UUV launch capability would be a needless risk.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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I don't know what China should do. I think it should go for a more open ocean design rather than a design focused on litorals and spec ops. The PLAAF and conventional sub fleet can do everything China needs up to a 2000 km distance from China's shores. Conventional subs can go even further to roughly 4000 km. China's nuclear sub fleet should be about sneaking into the West Pacific and the Indian ocean to pick out US assets. If the US imposes a distant blockade, its vessels will be spread thin since it doesn't have enough ships for such a task. That is what you want to see as a sub. To engage carrier groups you need missiles. Modern active sonar is no joke. So I actually think a Sino-Yasen with 32-50 VLS and 6-8 torpedo tubes is a good idea. Torpedo tubes can be larger than 533 mm to accommodate UUVs and future missiles. Spec ops missions can be done by conventional subs with less risk too. UUV capability is a must for any modern design. They may very well change everything so not having UUV launch capability would be a needless risk.
The more I read about the Virginia, the more it seems like the undersea F-35. None of these compromises would be necessary if the US had diesel submarines, and I have to laugh at the Pentagon's theory that adding to a system's mission set and making it more "multi-role" is going to reduce its price. I don't know if that's a con or they're just that dumb.

Anyways, enough about the US and its hilariously corrupt procurement. I agree that China should leverage its investment into diesels and adopt a two-tier system for its submarines; a very rough analogy to this would be the destroyer/frigate dichotomy exemplified by the Type 055 and Type 054A/B. The diesels would be the frigates of this analogy, and I think China should quickly retrofit them with new technologies like lithium-ion batteries. Given that China's battery manufacturing is world leading both in terms of scale and technology, it would be absolutely baffling if they weren't doing this already.

The 09-V would be the Type 055 of this analogy, a large-hulled, relatively expensive submarine optimized to hunt in deep waters.
 

AndrewS

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We've had several discussions before regarding this topic. I thought it's pretty apparent we had different opinions on where China is in terms of submarine stealth technology.

Now, if they are further ahead than I think they are, I still think it's beneficial to build something close to seawolf class in pressure hull diameter since that could possibly offer them an advantage over Virginia class.

From an engineering perspective, I see nuclear submarine stealth as being primarily about:

1. rafting (and therefore isolating) the internals from the outer pressure hull
2. having a natural flow reactor without noisy pumps
3. reducing any other discrete harmonics or noise sources that travel well in water

So submarine stealth isn't about a single magical technology, but simply heavy engineering graft and design experience.

It also seems that having a larger diameter pressure hull doesn't particularly increase quietness, assuming you have to have rafting anyway and if this is combined with a single pressure hull.
 

Hyper

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The more I read about the Virginia, the more it seems like the undersea F-35. None of these compromises would be necessary if the US had diesel submarines, and I have to laugh at the Pentagon's theory that adding to a system's mission set and making it more "multi-role" is going to reduce its price. I don't know if that's a con or they're just that dumb.

Anyways, enough about the US and its hilariously corrupt procurement. I agree that China should leverage its investment into diesels and adopt a two-tier system for its submarines; a very rough analogy to this would be the destroyer/frigate dichotomy exemplified by the Type 055 and Type 054A/B. The diesels would be the frigates of this analogy, and I think China should quickly retrofit them with new technologies like lithium-ion batteries. Given that China's battery manufacturing is world leading both in terms of scale and technology, it would be absolutely baffling if they weren't doing this already.

The 09-V would be the Type 055 of this analogy, a large-hulled, relatively expensive submarine optimized to hunt in deep waters.
How the hell are you gonna send a diesel electric submarine of the 90s and 2000s across the Pacific.
 

Hyper

Junior Member
Registered Member
Don't quote my posts until your reading comprehension shows dramatic improvement.
You explain me then. The us was involved in the Middle East then. That is why abomination like the lcs came into someone's mind. It is difficult to do power projection halfway across the world with diesel electric submarines.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
The more I read about the Virginia, the more it seems like the undersea F-35. None of these compromises would be necessary if the US had diesel submarines, and I have to laugh at the Pentagon's theory that adding to a system's mission set and making it more "multi-role" is going to reduce its price. I don't know if that's a con or they're just that dumb.

Anyways, enough about the US and its hilariously corrupt procurement. I agree that China should leverage its investment into diesels and adopt a two-tier system for its submarines; a very rough analogy to this would be the destroyer/frigate dichotomy exemplified by the Type 055 and Type 054A/B. The diesels would be the frigates of this analogy, and I think China should quickly retrofit them with new technologies like lithium-ion batteries. Given that China's battery manufacturing is world leading both in terms of scale and technology, it would be absolutely baffling if they weren't doing this already.

The 09-V would be the Type 055 of this analogy, a large-hulled, relatively expensive submarine optimized to hunt in deep waters.
I agree. As you would understand from my previous message I am not a big fan of subs. If you can't achieve the needed force concentrations in air and surface they are good for area denial. They can also penetrate enemy area-denial zones. These requirements don't exist for China. PLAAF and PLAN already easily outnumber the US forces in the region.
If you have enough air power, submarine ship sinking capabilities are inferior to air forces. Air forces can sweep a very large area off ships very fast.

Sub based land attack is probably the most expensive and slowest way of land attack out there. It only makes sense if you can not project power by other means. If China decides it needs to hit things in CONUS this can be very useful though.

Special forces insertion capability is a very niche capability and can be done by conventional or even specialized midget subs without risking a nuclear sub. I don't think risking a multi-billion nuclear sub to insert 9 operators is a good idea.

So China needs nuclear subs for a few reasons
- SSBN escort. Of course, you can't rely on non-submarine assets for this. Conv subs are range limited for this. Enemy SSNs are primary enemies.
- Anti-SSBN. I think China should stay away from this mission. Disarming strikes were never realistic and threatening second strike capability of a nation may lead to a preventative strike.
- Carrier task force escort. Conventional subs can't keep up with carriers and a single carrier has limited air power so a nuke sub escort is really useful.
- Picking out USN assets in distant oceans to break blockades and stop interference in Taiwan campaign. Closer distance missions can be handled by other assets. Typical anti ship mission. Large missile loads would be very useful.
- Attacking CONUS. I don't know how impactful would that be but if you already have a nuclear submarine with a lot of VLS, adding land attack missiles would be easy. May serve as extra deterrence and can be used at engaging the US base infrastructure. Panama canal locks can be targeted as well to divide the USN.
 

Blitzo

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The more I read about the Virginia, the more it seems like the undersea F-35. None of these compromises would be necessary if the US had diesel submarines, and I have to laugh at the Pentagon's theory that adding to a system's mission set and making it more "multi-role" is going to reduce its price. I don't know if that's a con or they're just that dumb.

The similarities between the F-35 and the Virginia class is that both are very advanced, world leading platforms in their categories that have been successfully mass produced and outmatch almost every other competitor out there by means of quality and certainly quantity.
The difference is that the Virginias as a program has been arguably the US defence establishment's most successful big ticket program of the last few decades. It is literally that good.
(The other differences include that F-35 was technically a multinational effort, but that's neither here or there for this comparison)

I think BoraTas has also overemphasized the littoral aspect of the Virginias somewhat. Yes, they are slightly better in the littorals than the Seawolfs, but in the open ocean they remain very capable and their acoustic stealth remains second to none. Maintaining all of that, while being able to mass produce them, while having SLCM capability and having more capable variants (that will essentially make them high end SSGNs), is astonishing.

And no lol, the USN procuring diesel submarines wouldn't somehow absolve them of the requirement for a large fleet of SSNs. SSKs simply cannot move as fast as SSNs or have the submerged endurance of SSNs. The USN's undersea force is an all nuclear fleet for a reason.

The Virginia class should not be viewed as a "SSN that's been forced to compromise to operate as a SSK" -- but rather a "relatively affordable and mass-producible SSN that can do almost everything with minimal to no sacrifices in capability compared to global peers, while being technologically and acoustically cutting edge".


Anyways, enough about the US and its hilariously corrupt procurement. I agree that China should leverage its investment into diesels and adopt a two-tier system for its submarines; a very rough analogy to this would be the destroyer/frigate dichotomy exemplified by the Type 055 and Type 054A/B. The diesels would be the frigates of this analogy, and I think China should quickly retrofit them with new technologies like lithium-ion batteries. Given that China's battery manufacturing is world leading both in terms of scale and technology, it would be absolutely baffling if they weren't doing this already.

The 09-V would be the Type 055 of this analogy, a large-hulled, relatively expensive submarine optimized to hunt in deep waters.

Diesel submarines should be better viewed as the 056/A equivalent, because expecting them to operate with any sort of competitive or realistic endurance outside of the first island chain from their homeports, would give up their few advantages of being SSKs, while exposing their disadvantages.
 
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