09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

flyzies

Junior Member
You can bet it will be in the future.
China already plan to have 6 carriers in the future and they will divide up among the fleets, Each carrier needs SSN escorts.

Attention is needed to be paid to PLA's entire command structure. E.g. Liaoning is not under the command of any of the fleets, it's directly under CMC. Which means, technically, the Liaoning is higher up (or at the very least, on the same level) as the 3 fleets.

Xi's major military reform conducted last year reorganised the PLA structure. There's still a little bit of confusion re the finer details, but we mostly have a clear picture now of where most big things sit.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is the conclusion of Henri K
Conclusion
China has a triple radar, optical and electronic capability for detecting, identifying and tracking ships at sea. Even without taking into account the real-time tracking capability from the geostationary orbit, the large optical constellation Field JB9 and the constellations SAR JB-5 and JB-7 make it possible to sweep every day a wide area to find contacts of interest, and have a good chance to refresh the tracks of the most interesting contacts every few Hours, even for vessels without electromagnetic emissions. As a result, it seems unlikely that an enemy naval group will hide long in the ocean.

However, in the event of heavy cloud cover, only SAR satellites can be used, which can severely limit the system's ability to identify and track. This does not mean that China would blind other means of detection, as
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, or just its
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may complement the satellite system, thus seriously question invulnerability The intervention of the United States to intervene in a new crisis of Taiwan would be much more risky, and so much less likely.

The Indian did some simulation study on the effectiveness of Chinese space surveillance system
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China’s Constellation of Yaogan Satellites & the ASBM
Authors: S. Chandrashekar and Soma Perumal
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With the recent launch of the Yaogan 19 satellite China has in place an advanced space capability to identify, locate and track an Aircraft Carrier Group (ACG) on the high seas. This space capability is an important component of an Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM) System that China has set up.

The current 19 satellite constellation consists of ELINT satellites, satellites carrying Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) sensors as well as satellites carrying optical imaging sensors. Based on the orbit characteristics, their local time of equatorial crossing and other related parameters, these satellites can be grouped into different categories that perform the various functions for identifying, locating and tracking the ACG.


Yaogan 9 (Yaogan 9A, 9B, 9C), Yaogan (16A, 16B, 16C) and Yaogan 17 (17A, 17B, 17C) are the three clusters that are equipped with ELINT sensors that provide broad area surveillance over the Oceans. With a coverage radius of about 3500 Km, they provide the first coarse fix for identifying and locating an ACG in the Pacific Ocean.

Yaogan 13, Yaogan 10, Yaogan 18 and Yaogan 14 are the satellites carrying a SAR sensor. With Local times of crossing of 02 00, 06 00, 10 00 and 14 00 hours and a resolution of 1 to 3 m , they provide all weather as well as day and night imaging capabilities over the regions of interest.

Yaogan 11, Yaogan 4, Yaogan 2 and Yaogan 7 constitute the high resolution optical satellites in the current constellation. The sensors they carry may have resolutions of between 1 to 3 m. Their local times of crossing of 09 00, 11 00, 13 30, and 15 00 hours respectively ensure favourable illumination conditions for their imaging missions. Yaogan 19 and Yaogan 15 satellites with local times of crossing of 10 30 and 14 30 hours respectively are optical imaging satellites with medium resolution (5 to 10 m) capabilities. They act as a broad area coverage complement for the SAR as well as the high resolution optical imaging satellites.

The Yaogan 12 which replaced the Yaogan5 has the orbital characteristics of a SAR mission but its local time of crossing is 10 30 AM. This is very close to the 10 00 hours crossing time of the Yaogan 18 SAR satellite. Having two satellites spaced so close to each other makes it unlikely that it is a SAR mission. Most probably this is a high resolution optical imaging satellite that complements the broad area coverage provided by the 1200 km orbit of the Yaogan 15 and Yaogan 19 satellites.

Using typical sensor geometries and the two line orbital elements available from public sources the ability of the current constellation to identify, locate and track the Aircraft Carrier Group was simulated.

The three ELINT clusters typically make 18 contacts in a day with the moving target. The maximum period for which the target remains outside the reach of the ELINT satellites is about 90 minutes in a day. The SAR and the optical imaging satellites together typically provide 24 satellite passes over the target. About 16 targeting opportunities, during which the uncertainty in the target’s location is less than 10 km, are available in a day.

The analysis and the simulation results suggest that China has in place an operational ASBM system that can identify, locate, track and destroy an Aircraft Carrier in the Pacific Ocean. This seems to be an important component of a larger Chinese Access and Area Denial Strategy focused around a conflict over Taiwan.
 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
China has a triple radar
May work. But whole history of subject tends to show what it's very hard to make it so. From organisational(interservice relations) point of view.
I.e. end user(navy in this case) better to obtain his own systems.

make it possible to sweep every day a wide area to find contacts of interest, and have a good chance to refresh the tracks of the most interesting contacts every few Hours
It's quite possible to trick(above-mentioned case is perfect example - time window+some fooling around with second carrier group+some rather minor mistakes produced impressive fiasco), and it won't realistically find target on its own.
Oceans are wast, and optical data requires deciphering. When someone really doesn't want to be seen - quite possibly, manual one.

SAR JB-5 and JB-7 make it possible
High LEO, synthetic aperture radar satellites as trackers?
Well, possible is actually a very good word for this capability.


Most likely, though - it looks like overthinking to me . If Chinese aren't producing tons of publications on all languages - it doesn't mean SAR sateliites are sneaky death stars in disguise, meant to threaten poor [insert poor victim here].

as
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1.Static capital systems of this kind do not provide full array of necessary capabilities.
2.Opponent knows about them. Apart from obvious planning - it makes relying on them prone to accidents.
Above mentioned FleetEx, for example, included precisely this kind of "events", on actual soviet soil.

Basically - it's better to plan what to do without them.

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may
Precisely kind of headlines i talked about. And performed by crews on their secondary mission.
Btw, girl in the link is rather pretty! :)

Summarising - while impressive, compared to same China 15 years ago - compared to actual foe we're talking about - it is not. There is significant difference between possible and can be counted on.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Gloire_bb you are entitled to your opinion.But you haven't provide any shred of evidence against the idea that the Chinese has in place and effective satellite based maritime surveillance system.It is all your opinion

That is not even counting the proliferation of long range high endurance (10hr) HALE UAV
thousand of fishing vessel
Submarine tailing the CSG
Civilian ship identification system that identify every civilian ship in the pacific
Automatic pattern recognition system that can identify the CSG and stitch the map
Tianlian relay satellite that transfer data from one satellite to the other

So unlike WWII there is no place to hide for CSG anymore
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
worldview 4 satellite info:
0.31 m resolution at nadir.
0.34 m at 20 deg off nadir. revisit time at 20 deg is 4.5 days.
1 m resolution at 56 deg off nadir. revisit time at 56 deg is approximately 15 or so hours.

Basically, such a satellite will, without any changing of the course, be able to get a 1m resolution (or better) every 15 or so hours - of the same piece of land/sea on earth.

Five such satellites could have that down to every 3 hours.

Of course, that's tracking figures, when satellites already know where they have to focus their search on each subsequent pass. For detection, satellites would first need to search the whole area and who knows how many passes would that take.

Also, this is for imaging satellites and no cloud cover.

SAR satellites are, to my knowledge, at around 1m resolution today, at similar altitude and at nadir. So around 3 meters resolution for 15-ish hour revisit time. Again, only for tracking of already previously identified target. Detecting a target in the first place would take many more passes.

China currently operates around 17 military operated optical, 6 military radar, 11 government operated optical sats, 1 government radar sat and half a dozen commercially operated optical satellites.

Make of the above what you will.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
Guys, you don't need to get real-time, superb resolution images to track down something as big as carrier. The traces it leaves in the water are pretty easy to find and it's done nowadays.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Guys, you don't need to get real-time, superb resolution images to track down something as big as carrier. The traces it leaves in the water are pretty easy to find and it's done nowadays.

What?! What kind of traces do you have in mind?? Keep in mind that carriers move on the surface of water. And as a liquid, water flows. Even without any wind at all, the trace left by a carrier would dissipate within very short amount of time. If you add a little bit of wind, any trace would be wiped out in no time.

even assuming you can follow traces on the surface of water (like in sand or snow), how do you look at a trace and decide it is from a carrier but not a large container ship? You know there are hundreds of those container ships in the ocean at any given moment?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China currently operates around 17 military operated optical, 6 military radar, 11 government operated optical sats, 1 government radar sat and half a dozen commercially operated optical satellites
Way too small number China now has 181 satellite in orbit and most of them are dual use satellite. The Indian use strictly military satellite in their simulation

Number of satellites in orbit by major country as of June 30, 2016

This statistic depicts the number of satellites in orbit as of June 30, 2016, with a breakdown by major country. China had 181 operating satellites in orbit. The total number of operating satellites came to 1,419.

Space NationsNumber of satellites in orbit140181522576RussiaChinaRest of the worldU.S.
0100200300400500600700
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According to this outdated website 50 satellite of know military and civilian data is from 2014 just add 20 more for 2016
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Janiz

Senior Member
Even without any wind at all, the trace left by a carrier would dissipate within very short amount of time.
I already wrote that was the main reason why they haven't made any stealth features on the Ford class (though they could go with full 'stealth' design - there were designs ready for that). And for the traces on the surface - if I remember well it's possible to find those even after some time for such a big vessel. 24+ hours comes to my head. But I can check it out for you later. They came to conclusion 'why do we need any stealth features on our carriers when it could be traced from the skies?'. Not to mention that carrier isn't alone during combat missions.
 
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