09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[Blitzo]

Is is not only a matter of reactor and as Russians, Soviets at this time hull with a bad hydrodynamic especially big hump for Delta as Jin and also vents for evacuating water and on Jin are compared for noise to a Delta III 130 dB ! Xia again more can be 140 very very noisy.

For noise of 093/094 all articles confirm it and in more we have two reputables members moderators also which get a blog an both say also it especialy 093 is disappointing for noise especialy.

So i see some Chinese people ... want her sub' s good/efficient but is not the true fact are the fact and I would say the same thing for a submarine of any other country if it was bad or good.

We are in a free forum and i can quote /post freely according the rules ofc it is normal and if article i post is in the rules and does not say outlandish things i am free to post from National Interest or not, ONI or not or others for especialy Hendrik_2000 and members which like her post...

You're obviously able to post stuff freely so long as they're not against the rules, but others are also able to criticize sources which they see as BS.

Personally I take all reports of any nation's SSNs with a massive grain of salt, given revealing how quiet or loud an adversary's submarines would be quite an intelligence windfall.

 

[taxiya]

The may be something to that ONI chart. I used to discount that chart as well, but subsequent information caused me to rethink that.

You may have heard this before, but China developed 2nd generation vibration isolation raft around 2008-2009 and 3rd generation raft around 2012, with capacity of 50 tonne and several hundred tonne respectively. And development of high pressure flexible pipe coupling is around the same time frame. This means 093 and 094, at least the early hulls, would not have the rafts for much of the machinery. This means much higher noise. -- hence there are basis to the ONI chart.

While it is possible to update the couplings, I don't think it's possible to put in the rafts without cutting into the pressure hull -- which is very troublesome to do. The later hulls build after that date may have been modified for the newly developed raft, but at least I haven't heart about it.

Your thinking may be right, but that has nothing to do with the credibility of ONI chart.
The credibility problem of ONI chart is "they were publish 2 or 3years before type 93 was even launched" as Hendrik said. That basically killed any credibility of ONI. Even if ONI got a close figure of 093, it would only be a lucky shot, nothing based on physics because even PLAN wouldn't have a figure before taking a raid with 093 out in the sea. credibility is based on facts and logistics, not blind luck.

 

[taxiya]

As soon as I see National interest I stop reading it because National Interest article is of questionable accuracy and clouded by anti China ideology.

Any article about chinese submarine always refer to ONI chart which again is of questionable accuracy since they were publish 2 or 3years before type 93 was even launched

Thank you, now I know the name of "the ghost data, diagram" that I mentioned in an earlier post, ONI chart.

 

[FORBIN]

But the problem is this is report were publish not 3 years before 093 lauched but 3 year after 093 is put in service so you got wrong datas.
And how a report can be to do before the submarine are in the sea seriously !

In 2009, USN ONI listed the Type 093 as being noisier than

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(NATO reporting name Victor III) which entered service in 1979

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The first # 407 launched 12/2002 put in service 12/2006.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

But the problem is this is report were publish not 3 years before 093 lauched but 3 year after 093 is put in service so you got wrong datas.
And how a report can be to do before the submarine are in the sea seriously !

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The first # 407 launched 12/2002 put in service 12/2006.

No they did the same thing with type 95 that listed in ONI Chart but yet to be launched. Some old timer in CDF I forget his name did complain to Hans Christensen about it . That chart has been around a long time and never been updated. Never trust Wiki as reliable source As bltizo said any submarine noise data is not publicly available . We won't know it until it is used
YOU ARE WRONG!

 

[Jeff Head]

CUT OUT THE BACK AND FORTH...YOU ARE WRONG...HE IS WRONG...arguments and back and forth.

Post your opinions and thoughts on both sides, and that is fine.

But stop at the urge to make it personal.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THOIS MODERATION

 

[plawolf]

Submarine noise levels are not as secret as some people are making them out to be.

It's a purely passive measurement, and reporting it doesn't really give up any really classified information, especially if it's someone else's sub.

Reporting a sub is XXX dB is only telling the owner of the sub what they already know since it's a very easy and unambiguous value to measure.

More operationally relevant data, like detection range and any specific sound characteristics that might have been discovered would be highly classified material that we shouldn't see publically discloses unless someone really screwed up somewhere.

 

[coolieno99]

Low frequency noise travel at a much farther distance than high frequency noise under water. Back in the old days the biggest source of low frequency noise was the propeller. The US Navy had an easy time of tracking Soviet subs, because the Soviet subs had outdated propellers that emit large amount of low frequency sound. Once the Soviets realized that their subs were easily tracked due to low frequency emissions , they replaced their outdated propellers with the newer sickle-shape propellers , making their subs undetectable. If the Chinese fitted their subs with sickle-shape propellers, then they are basically undetectable. The sickle-shape propellers were at one time considered top secret.

 

[antiterror13]

Low frequency noise travel at a much farther distance than high frequency noise under water. Back in the old days the biggest source of low frequency noise was the propeller. The US Navy had an easy time of tracking Soviet subs, because the Soviet subs had outdated propellers that emit large amount of low frequency sound. Once the Soviets realized that their subs were easily tracked due to low frequency emissions , they replaced their outdated propellers with the newer sickle-shape propellers , making their subs undetectable. If the Chinese fitted their subs with sickle-shape propellers, then they are basically undetectable. The sickle-shape propellers were at one time considered top secret.

I remember ... I think in 1980s ... Toshiba secretly sold high tech CNC machine to USSR, so Soviets was able to produce much better propellers for the subs

 

[plawolf]

Low frequency noise travel at a much farther distance than high frequency noise under water. Back in the old days the biggest source of low frequency noise was the propeller. The US Navy had an easy time of tracking Soviet subs, because the Soviet subs had outdated propellers that emit large amount of low frequency sound. Once the Soviets realized that their subs were easily tracked due to low frequency emissions , they replaced their outdated propellers with the newer sickle-shape propellers , making their subs undetectable. If the Chinese fitted their subs with sickle-shape propellers, then they are basically undetectable. The sickle-shape propellers were at one time considered top secret.

Chinese subs have been using the most advanced prop designs for at least 2 decades. They are a bit slow on moving to pumpjets, but that's a very react addition to even western subs, and hopefully they are introduced with the 095s.

As mentioned, the Soviet shortcoming wasn't with design, but at her application. And was only solved by buying high precision multi-axis computer controlled milling tools from Japan. China is now one of the world's top producers to such advanced tooling.

By all accounts, modern Chinese SSKs are world class, so they certainly know how to make a quiet sub.

The problem with their nuclear subs is almost certainly reactor related, since that's the only meaningful difference between SSKs and SSNs.

With China fast becoming the world leading civilian nuclear reactor producing nation, that bottleneck should be broken soon, if it hasn't been already.