09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[SARB033]

First of all, since you're new to the forum, you may not know but SCMP is regarded (by everyone, not just pro-Chinese members) as a highly unreliable source full of fake military "experts" like Andrei Chang, etc...

Secondly, this is again, maybe due to your ignorance of submarine operations, an example of you believing whatever you read because the paper claimed that some "expert" said something. Since developing a filter requires some knowledge on the subject, you don't have one. There are "experts" that say anything. Some say the Chinese economy will collapse; others say the US will go into recession in 2028; some say China has the means to win WWIII while others say there's no chance anyone could beat the USA. You're unfortunately still in a phase where you can only rely on external interpretation.

1. There is no mechanism that can force a sub to surface. Do any of your sources claim to know how you can do this? Or do they give you an empty conclusion?
2. Having a submarine's true stealthy acoustic signature figured out is detrimental to the sub, but if it knows you're recording, chances are, you're not recording the true acoustic signature. This is not just for Chinese subs.
3. Nobody claimed that the flag was there for sovereignty. I said it's a "Mission accomplished, see you next time" taunt.

These have all been pointed out to you. You can quote as many people you want but (false) credentials don't trump logic and quoting 1,000 "experts" saying the same thing doesn't mean it will be true if it doesn't fit logic. In other words, 1,000 people can say that a sub was forced to surface, but if there's not a way to do that, they'd still all be wrong. If you wanted to counter this statement, the only way you could do it is to provide a way for which it could be done. Even then, you would only prove the possibility, not that it actually happened.

Lastly, again, whether the flag-raising was a threat or taunt or something else is speculation, but I've never heard of any country in the world that raises their national flag to surrender. Maybe your country does; I don't know, but usually, it is the white flag for surrender. The national flag means pride.

Your fantasy story is reminiscent of "The True Story of Ah Q " by Lu Xun.

 

[SARB033]

After discussion here, this is what I make of this:

PLAN sent this sub for data collection in the waters around the Diaoyu. They didn't know if any Japanese would happen to be there and thus be able to pick it up in such shallow waters but they were ok with it if they did because they had preventative measures to hide its true acoustic signature. The Japanese were there and they saw the sub. It didn't care and continued to collect data for 5 days knowing the Japanese could do nothing to it. When its mission was completed, it slowly sailed away at nowhere near its max speed as the Japanese continued to follow it and curse at it (pinging it) with no actions they could take. Eventually, it was far enough and the captain decided to show the Chinese flag telling them to look at this flag, which will operate as it pleases without anything you can do about it. It is more of a taunt that anything.

" Ah Q is famous for "spiritual victories", Lu Xun's

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for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation."

 

[jobjed]

" Ah Q is famous for "spiritual victories", Lu Xun's

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for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation."

That is like the PERFECT description for the JMSDF right now. They revealed the capabilities and frequencies of numerous sonars and still think they claimed a victory.

 

[SARB033]

That is like the PERFECT description for the JMSDF right now. They revealed the capabilities and frequencies of numerous sonars and still think they claimed a victory.

Ah Q is always winner. Endless.

 

[Tam]

JMSDF's destroyer and helicopter continuously chased the sub for nearly 24 hours, and hit active sonar pinging from short distance. then, the sub surfaced and showed flag. it's not shame for PLAN?

Chasing and actively pinging? That's perfect for data collection on the part of the sub. The sub has a long range low frequency flank array that is also going to pick up the destroyer's acoustic signature, and very likely ahead before the destroyer could pick up the sub.

 

[jobjed]

Ah Q is always winner. Endless.

Haha ikr, Japanese are always like that.




**disclaimer to the more logically attuned; this thread isn't an entirely serious engagement of perspectives, it's mostly a deluded individual being fed the same speculative medicine he insists on others. Speculation on the events in question is simply that, speculation. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how validated you want to feel about preconceived stereotypes of a certain SEA country, one particular individual refuses to recognise the speculative nature of the discussion and stubbornly continues to engage in high-modality insistence on one version -- and an improbable version at that -- of events. Very well, two (or like four in the case of this thread) can play this game. If the Pinoy insists on treating speculation as gospel truth, it's fair game to treat our speculation likewise.

 

[Tam]

from SCMP article,

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"Some military experts believe the vessel was forced to surface, but others say there is not enough information to back up that theory."

“This is such a shame for the navy,” said a Beijing-based military source, who requested anonymity, adding that the vessel was detected because it was “too noisy”.

"It is also unusual that a nuclear submarine – which could stay underwater for months – surfaced in front of another navy, given that they usually strive to stay unseen and undetected."

“Once a submarine has been exposed and its unique acoustics have been recorded, it puts them at a great disadvantage,” said Li Jie, a researcher at the Naval Military Studies Research Institute in Beijing.

Macau-based military expert Antony Wong Dong believed the nuclear attack submarine was forced to surface, and said it was “dumb” of the Chinese navy to allow its features to be seen and photographed.
He also dismissed claims that the submarine was flying a Chinese flag to assert its claim to sovereignty over the Diaoyus, noting that it surfaced in international waters.
“If they wanted to claim sovereignty, why didn’t the submarine enter the territorial seas of the islands?” Wong said.

Submarines get photographed all the time. What's really dumb about this article is that when you photograph a submarine, you only photograph the upper part of the submarine, and not much of the submarine that is underwater. And still, there are photographs made of submarines that are being launched in ceremony with their hulls completely shown while they are still on the dry dock.

It is not unusual for subs to surface to show its flag --- as well as what its capable of --- just like that Kilo the RN tried to tail heading to the Mediterranean. And this Type 093A has a message --- this one carries YJ-18 supersonic antiship missiles. In a war encounter, the sub would have first detection --- thanks to the long range flank sonar --- and first shot at the destroyer using the YJ-18, and the destroyer will not have the range to send ASROCs or helicopter as the missile can be launched well beyond those ranges.

 

[SARB033]

Chasing and actively pinging? That's perfect for data collection on the part of the sub. The sub has a long range low frequency flank array that is also going to pick up the destroyer's acoustic signature, and very likely ahead before the destroyer could pick up the sub.

you really think so?
usually, anti-sub helicopter hits active sonar's ping.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Your fantasy story is reminiscent of "The True Story of Ah Q " by Lu Xun.

So basically, you have no answers for anything here (https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/pl...r-submarine-thread.t6883/page-168#post-496996) so you try to spin a flag-raising as a sign of defeat (must be your culture, not ours) and then you refer to a fairy tale as if that somehow puts you above knowledge and logic. Is that a fair summary of your argumentative technique? LOL I'm sorry, but your admiration for Chinese literature does not translate to a coherent argument in modern naval tactics.

You remind me of a Japanese poster by the name of Sadblue who once tried to win an argument by quoting an anime character for evidence LOLOL

 

[Tam]

you really think so?
usually, anti-sub helicopter hits active sonar's ping.

That data is also collected. In fact, the helo's sonar is just as or more important. Once you get the wave form, you can put that through a simulator against different water types based on temperature and salinity to determine its range and depth under varying conditions. The submarine can collect all that, and so can the Type 054A frigate nearby.