071 LPD thread

[asif iqbal]

So fitting out is basically 60% of the cost

Also makes sense since launch is always so quick and fitting out takes time

 

[Max Demian]

One of the ships that rammed a Burke was only a 30,000 tonner. In World War 2, that's battleship displacement, today, that's a runt of a freighter.

Sorry to nitpick, but the smaller of the two ships was a freighter with a 40,000 DWT. Fully loaded it could displace almost 50,000t.

 

[AndrewS]

The prices went up because the US military complex has far less competing companies in this decade back to compared in the 1950s. How many shipyards were still there in 1955? How many aircraft companies were still there in 1955? Compared to now.

Commercial companies compete in the free market means reduced profits and even losses. Although there is now a clear trend to consolidation, the big fish eating the small fish, like what happened to the military industry. You can expect ship prices to go up once there are few fish left.

The US shipbuilding industry has another problem. It does not have a commercial shipping industry to live on. That means all the cost of the military contracts have to include all the costs to keep that shipyard surviving. That raises your cost entirely.

The Chinese shipbuilding industry doesn't need military contracts to live, and in fact it was said they prefer doing commercial contracts because it makes more money --- apparently the Chinese government dictate to the SOEs the profit margins the shipbuilders can put on the military contracts.

The same can be said of the S. Korean, Japanese, and European shipbuilding companies, except they can dictate profits on the military contracts on their own. They do not need military contracts to survive but its an added bonus to their income. The shipbuilding business is cutthroat enough with bidders constantly undercutting each other, so any contract to keep the company working is welcome.

Then there is to a certain extent that their governments support these shipbuilding industries, despite WTO rules. US shipbuilding companies don't have such government support.

Yes, there simply is no competition in many military sectors.

So what do private monopolies do if their profits are capped at x%?

The answer is to inflate the cost base and choose more expensive suppliers, so that a 10% profit is a bigger number.
And for complex products, there are literally thousands of components.

@Brumby

The Chinese naval shipbuilding industry has way more competition that what we see in the USA.
Plus there is still a large commercial shipbuilding industry in China, which also imposes cost discipline.
That is the environment that state-owned shipbuilders live with.

 

[vesicles]

I have a stupid question with regard to the "bump". I've had this question for a while since the last time I heard about the similar bumps between the cargo ships and the USN ships. In each accident, both ships should have their own radars. Especially, all the war ships have a forest of highly sophisticated radars of all sorts. How could they miss that humongous monster of a cargo ship and hit each other like that? Especially, this time, the PLAN had two ships there. At least one of the ships should've picked up that huge cargo ship on their radars... How can this kind of bumping happen all the time?

My guess is that they all turned off the radars? But why? I can understand that the PLAN warships might want to hide themselves against potential detection from the Taiwan ships nearby. However, why did the cargo ship also turn off their radars?

 

[Tam]

I have a stupid question with regard to the "bump". I've had this question for a while since the last time I heard about the similar bumps between the cargo ships and the USN ships. In each accident, both ships should have their own radars. Especially, all the war ships have a forest of highly sophisticated radars of all sorts. How could they miss that humongous monster of a cargo ship and hit each other like that? Especially, this time, the PLAN had two ships there. At least one of the ships should've picked up that huge cargo ship on their radars... How can this kind of bumping happen all the time?

My guess is that they all turned off the radars? But why? I can understand that the PLAN warships might want to hide themselves against potential detection from the Taiwan ships nearby. However, why did the cargo ship also turn off their radars?

That is an interesting question. Its not radars that are turned off, its called an AIS transponder. An AIS transponder sends the ship ID and location up a satellite, and this is shared with all the ships that access the AIS system. You can track any container ship in the Internet using this. Let's throw out some container ships in my mind.

Maersk Montana

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OOCL Hong Kong

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There, you can keep track of any ship in the world like a boss.

Because of the AIS network, ships know each other's ID and location. Ships on autopilot act on this information. The navigation radar is the back up.

Military ships do have AIS but its not turned on in order not to betray their location. Big ships are like robots running their course based on AIS information. But the problem is what happens if another ship took off its AIS deliberately and went off the grid. Detecting the other ship will have to be based on radar and radar alone. But large ships are running on autopilot, the autopilot may not act on the radar detection on the assumption that if the other ship is on port side, the main ship has right of way.

 

[Yazzinra]

Note that we see a big difference in costs for Arleigh Burkes between Japan and the USA.

Not much difference really. Maya costs around 1.5 billion USD, Burke costs around 1.8 billion.

 

[AndrewS]

Not much difference really. Maya costs around 1.5 billion USD, Burke costs around 1.8 billion.

That is interesting. The last time I looked the Japanese Burkes were nearer 1 B USD.

 

[vesicles]

That is an interesting question. Its not radars that are turned off, its called an AIS transponder. An AIS transponder sends the ship ID and location up a satellite, and this is shared with all the ships that access the AIS system. You can track any container ship in the Internet using this. Let's throw out some container ships in my mind.

Maersk Montana

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OOCL Hong Kong

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COSCO Shipping Universe

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There, you can keep track of any ship in the world like a boss.

Because of the AIS network, ships know each other's ID and location. Ships on autopilot act on this information. The navigation radar is the back up.

Military ships do have AIS but its not turned on in order not to betray their location. Big ships are like robots running their course based on AIS information. But the problem is what happens if another ship took off its AIS deliberately and went off the grid. Detecting the other ship will have to be based on radar and radar alone. But large ships are running on autopilot, the autopilot may not act on the radar detection on the assumption that if the other ship is on port side, the main ship has right of way.

Thanks for the explanation! However, I’m not too concerned with what the cargo ship is doing. Instead, I am more concerned about the military ship with their superior “situational awareness’. Yet, in these accidents, they are not aware of a big ole cargo monster is about to hit them... How often are military ships on autopilot? Should they be on autopilot in the middle of a mission or an exercise? Especially, when they approach an island (in secrecy), should they take off autopilot?

 

[Tam]

Thanks for the explanation! However, I’m not too concerned with what the cargo ship is doing. Instead, I am more concerned about the military ship with their superior “situational awareness’. Yet, in these accidents, they are not aware of a big ole cargo monster is about to hit them... How often are military ships on autopilot? Should they be on autopilot in the middle of a mission or an exercise? Especially, when they approach an island (in secrecy), should they take off autopilot?

Hard to know the answers without being there yourself. From others are saying, it was a Type 073A landing ship. The funny thing is, that Yutings have been observed in the South China Seas, and in one incident, with ship no. 994, allegedly tried to ram two Vietnamese shipping boats.

 

[lcloo]

Thanks for the explanation! However, I’m not too concerned with what the cargo ship is doing. Instead, I am more concerned about the military ship with their superior “situational awareness’. Yet, in these accidents, they are not aware of a big ole cargo monster is about to hit them... How often are military ships on autopilot? Should they be on autopilot in the middle of a mission or an exercise? Especially, when they approach an island (in secrecy), should they take off autopilot?

There is a good reason that all ships concern switched off their radar. The PLAN ships and the Taiwan freighter were in a sensitive location where both sides prefer not to show themselves to the other. The collision happened at night and without radar and light, and no Moon light at this particular time of month, it is extremely dangerous journey.

Jinmen or Kinmen is only just a few miles away from shore of China mainland, this was the place of many bombardment battles where both PLA and KMT troops fired hundreds of thousands artillery rounds at each other for 21 year that officially ended in 1979. At present there is still a garrison of (ROC/KMT) soldiers there, and the freighter also might carries some military supply.