071 LPD thread

[Sczepan]

Re: Type 071 LPD

....

PS: Hello everybody. First post, regular reader though.

Hi Turin, be welcome in the members club
this is one of the two best chinese watchers board I'ever seen (thats also the meaning of Kpt. Mommsen of the Marineforum)
for their figure of 8 LCAC - the pic looks like there ar two neighboured.
4 LCACs behind eachother and two neighboured result a number of 8 summary;
Mommsen as I know is very carefull in his articles. I don't know all his sources, but I'm pretty sure, whenever he wrote 8 LCACs he have had very good detailled information about that
indeed - there are two "AK-630 ?" at the back helo-hanger - he did'nt wrote about the additional (supposed) two AK-630 midships, cause we have only seen the backward CIWIS very clear, I think, ....
(wrting 730 instead of 630 is just a typing error to me)

 

[turin]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Hello Erich,

yeah, thats the picture I am familiar with as well. Of course based on the apparent size of the LCAC there one may assume that there are two of them sitting next to each other. However I really cannot see a visible indication of the second row of vehicles in the picture. In my POV the air-screws are actually a good indicator, I can make out two pairs for each unit, no others next to them though. So I thought that he may have seen a picture I was not familiar with.

Of course the model picture may not be any real indication as to what the LPD is capable of carrying in the end. Most LPD can carry a variety of transport vehicles and I guess its no difference with this one. Maybe those ones are only place-holders for the primary LCAC this LPD is intended to carry. We will see.

And yeah, I view Mommsen as a credible and professional writer, thats why I am all the more careful about what he is actually writing. I remember having a conversation with him about his research, and he was pointing out the difficult task of getting information there. So in cases not involving his personal background (and connections?) he is mostly in the same boat as we are here.

 

[Sczepan]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Hi Turin,
I also didn't know Mommsens sources,
but look about the dimensions of this ship:
- the beam at the bridge seems > 30 m (see the railing, and add 2 m of each section)
- do the same thing at the bow section

to compare: USS San Antonio has a beam of 31.9 m (105 ft) extreme, 29.5 m (97 ft) waterline
and a Length of 208.5 m (684 ft) overall, 201.4 m (661 ft) waterline - source:

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)

> 30 m is big enough to hold a second row of the hovercraft type "Kalmar" and "Murena" (NATO: "Lebed", "Tsaplya" - dimensions 24, 8 m x 10,8 m, 85 t, 70 knts, each of them could carrie 2x PT-76 IFV or 120 Marines)
8 of this vehicles added a number of 960 Marines, including the helo-transport one 071 could carrie maxim. 1000 marines at one wave in this view ....
ten of those ships could launch one marine brigade with about 6,000 to 7,000 personnel

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.

 

[planeman]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Hi Turin,
I also didn't know Mommsens sources,
but look about the dimensions of this ship:
- the beam at the bridge seems > 30 m (see the railing, and add 2 m of each section)
- do the same thing at the bow section

to compare: USS San Antonio has a beam of 31.9 m (105 ft) extreme, 29.5 m (97 ft) waterline
and a Length of 208.5 m (684 ft) overall, 201.4 m (661 ft) waterline - source:

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)

> 30 m is big enough to hold a second row of the hovercraft type "Kalmar" and "Murena" (NATO: "Lebed", "Tsaplya" - dimensions 24, 8 m x 10,8 m, 85 t, 70 knts, each of them could carrie 2x PT-76 IFV or 120 Marines)
8 of this vehicles added a number of 960 Marines, including the helo-transport one 071 could carrie maxim. 1000 marines at one wave in this view ....
ten of those ships could launch one marine brigade with about 6,000 to 7,000 personnel

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.

Great pic of the dock ramp. right, there are some depth markings on the rear hull no doubt used for when it floods its dock. They appear to be at 0.2m intervals (China uses metric system???). I guess 0.2m because if they are 0.1m intervals then the dock is only about 8.5m wide (laughably small) whereas if they are say 0.5m wide then the dock itself is an unfeasible 37m wide.

So my estimate of the dock width is about 15m (maybe 17m max):

If the dock ramp is about 15m wide, then the rear of the ship is about 22m wide, which would put the overal beam at around 24~26m which seems very plausible given the dimensions of other LPDs.

This estimate makes it only wide enough for a single column of "Lebed" LCAC.

 

[Sczepan]

Re: Type 071 LPD

great calculation
compared to the railing at the bridge section

each section could have 1,50 m up to 2,00 m?
By adding 16 sections of 1,50 m overal beam is around 24~26m ...

May I use your pic and calculation please furthermore?

 

[adeptitus]

Re: Type 071 LPD

If we're talking about the Type 724, then yeah, you can prolly fit 2 rows of 'em in the LPD because they're so small. But each can only carry 10 troops? Wouldn't you need something larger to actually haul cargo and vehicles? The USN LPD-17 is larger than the 071 and only carries a couple of larger LCAC's.

Hmm... did anyone notice that not only are the LPD-17 and 071 look somewhat similiar in exterior apperance, the 071 is reverse of 17? (17 -> 71)

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Hmm... did anyone notice that not only are the LPD-17 and 071 look somewhat similiar in exterior apperance, the 071 is reverse of 17? (17 -> 71)

Oh I did. So did others.. When I posted a pic of the Type 71 in one of my yahoo USN groups the first question was "When/how did China steal the plans to LPD-17? ..I don't think they did. They copied some of the atributes of the ship a long with other LPD's worldwide.

Sczepan, did you know that the LPD-17 class has 4 desiel marine engines for propulsion and 5 Caterpillar Service desiels for electrical power??

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The ship is powered by four Colt-Pielstick 2.5 STC diesel engines developing 10,400hp each. The main reduction gears from Philadelphia Gear Corp turn two shafts with Bird Johnson controllable pitch propellers. A new high-power "low-drag" propeller hub design provides improved propeller efficiency.

The ship's electrical power is provided by five 2,500kW Caterpillar Ship Service Diesel Generators (SSDG), with self-cleaning strainers and filters and electric pumps. Seven 200t York air-conditioning units are fitted for cooling of systems and habitation. The ship auxiliary systems are all electric, including electric heating, electric water heaters and a 72,000gpd reverse osmosis water-generating plant.

And the LPD class has room in the hull for future installation of Mk-41 VLS

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The ship's automated combat system includes a highly capable sensor suite and weapons capability that provides for a robust self defense capability. The initial three units may not get the vertical SAM launch-cell group on the forecastle; space is reserved for the addition of further groups of Mk 41 cells forward.

Is there room on the Type 071 for a VLS?

 

[Sczepan]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Oh I did. So did others.. When I posted a pic of the Type 71 in one of my yahoo USN groups the first question was "When/how did China steal the plans to LPD-17? ..I don't think they did. They copied some of the atributes of the ship a long with other LPD's worldwide.

thats truth - and LPD-17 seems to be developed by the knowledge of LPD-4 Austin class

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and LSD-36 Anchorage class

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- let me say: simillar mission results simillar design
see also
Royal Navy's Albion Class Landing Platform Docks (LPDs)

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Sczepan, did you know that the LPD-17 class has 4 desiel marine engines for propulsion and 5 Caterpillar Service desiels for electrical power??

I did - and which propulsion do you think the 071 will have? My five cents ....

And the LPD class has room in the hull for future installation of Mk-41 VLS

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Is there room on the Type 071 for a VLS?

should be ....

 

[planeman]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Re my dock width estimate based on the depth markings on the hull, can someone please confirm whether PLAN uses meters in this regard. Internat research suggests that the "common" unit of measurement in China is the Sl:

1 Sl = 0.333m

So if the depth marks are in Sl increments, then I would revise my estimate of the dock width to 75 x 0.333 = 25m (!!!!!)

Hmmm.... I think that's unfeasible as it would indeed make the Type-071 wider than the San antonio which defies the eyes.

Just for reference here is some compariative data on amphibious warships with docks. The displacement may be misleading as some sources I used didn't specify whether it was "dead weight", standard, full or "flooded" displacement.

 

[planeman]

Re: Type 071 LPD

Another attempt at a beam (width) estimate.

Making an adjustment for perspective etc, the ship is about 12 times the width of an AK-176 gun at the waist, and about 10.5~11 times the AK-176 at her bridge:

Now, if only we knew the approximate dimensions of the AK-176 gun... so to that end I've been playing around with some apparently to-scale detailed plans of the AK-176 (older curved-casing model) and I estimate the gun to be about 1.9~2m wide at the point I've drawn my markers.

So, if my measurement units are 1.9m, then that makes the ship about 23m in total beam, whereas if the units are 2m, then it would be about 24m in beam.

So hardly conclusive but together with the previous rear ramp estimate, it looks like the Type-071 is in the region of 24~25m in beam. That's pretty typical of LPDs, but suggests that the ship is decidely smaller than the US San Antonio class which everyone seems keen to compare it with.