056 class FFL/corvette

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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Ship design, like design in general, is all about compromises and rationing options. We know that they have a RIB hanger on the port side, but surely they did not make all those sacrifices just to allow them to launch and recover a single RIB, and it also begs the question of just what they are using the rest of the extra space for. For example, even with the RIB hanger, there should be more than enough room to squeeze a triple torpedo launcher on the same deck on the port side, and there is no question about room on the starboard. Why place the torpedo launchers in the hanger?
That's because those openings in the back are not hangars. They need to be that wide so that the launchers can swing out sideways without bumping into the walls. They also serve as passageways for people to get from the helipad to the rest of the ship and vice versa because there is no door on the wall facing the helipad, just two vents or maybe windows. Also note that recent construction photos show that these passageways terminate fairly close to the forward end of the launchers, which reinforces the likelihood that they serve the role of torpedo bay + passageway. Even if you manage to stick a small UAV helo in one or both of those passageways, you would then be unable to use the launcher on that side or both sides, a potentially fatal gamble if an enemy sub is about to annihilate you.

BTW here is a photo I posted earlier in the thread showing just how wide these torpedo areas need to be. Note that the area where the launcher is located is significantly wider than where the photographer is standing:


torp4y.jpg
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
That's because those openings in the back are not hangars. They need to be that wide so that the launchers can swing out sideways without bumping into the walls. They also serve as passageways for people to get from the helipad to the rest of the ship and vice versa because there is no door on the wall facing the helipad, just two vents or maybe windows. Also note that recent construction photos show that these passageways terminate fairly close to the forward end of the launchers, which reinforces the likelihood that they serve the role of torpedo bay + passageway. Even if you manage to stick a small UAV helo in one or both of those passageways, you would then be unable to use the launcher on that side or both sides, a potentially fatal gamble if an enemy sub is about to annihilate you.

BTW here is a photo I posted earlier in the thread showing just how wide these torpedo areas need to be. Note that the area where the launcher is located is significantly wider than where the photographer is standing:


torp4y.jpg

These two should make for a good side-by-side comparison.

133623ibq86cidsy967e7f.jpg


As you can see, judging based on the crewmen for prospective, the doors to the hanger is more than wide enough to allow the torpedo launchers to swing out with room to spare, and the two doors only account for about half the length of the whole hanger.

The FL300 launcher on top does not appear to have a mechanical reload system in place, thus it should not need much deck penetration, neither should the small mast. That leaves plenty of room to store a UAV there if so desired.

I am not sure what construction photos you are referring to, perhaps you would like to post them or link to them as it is a lot more helpful to get your point across if you can show us exactly what you are talking about.

However, if you look at this picture, you can clearly see that there are doors leading into the hanger so it would appear that the hanger is through and through so I really have no idea what you are talking about with close passages.

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Now having said that, it is also possible that instead of keeping that space clear for a future UAV, the PLAN will store munitions, spares and equipment needed to service and resupply any helos that lands on the helipad.

That however, reinforces the question of just what exactly they are using all that space in the lower aft decks for. There are two full decks below the helipad, if they did not need that space for something, it should have been perfectly feasible to find the space needed for the torpedo launchers on one of those decks. That way, all they needed to do was make the hanger a little taller and they would have had themselves a full helo hanger instead of the curiosity they do now.

That possibility would not have somehow escaped the notice of the designers, so it was a deliberate choice to forgo the full hanger capacity in order to have more room below decks. Would be interesting to know what was so important.
 

joshuatree

Captain
The implementation of a new mod before the original had even set sail is very unusual for any navy, never mind the PLAN....

Ship design, like design in general, is all about compromises and rationing options. We know that they have a RIB hanger on the port side, but surely they did not make all those sacrifices just to allow them to launch and recover a single RIB, and it also begs the question of just what they are using the rest of the extra space for. For example, even with the RIB hanger, there should be more than enough room to squeeze a triple torpedo launcher on the same deck on the port side, and there is no question about room on the starboard. Why place the torpedo launchers in the hanger?

That's because those openings in the back are not hangars. They need to be that wide so that the launchers can swing out sideways without bumping into the walls. They also serve as passageways for people to get from the helipad to the rest of the ship and vice versa because there is no door on the wall facing the helipad, just two vents or maybe windows. Also note that recent construction photos show that these passageways terminate fairly close to the forward end of the launchers, which reinforces the likelihood that they serve the role of torpedo bay + passageway. Even if you manage to stick a small UAV helo in one or both of those passageways, you would then be unable to use the launcher on that side or both sides, a potentially fatal gamble if an enemy sub is about to annihilate you......

So we've seen mods already being made which I think makes it fair to say we shouldn't discount any more changes. Under that premise, what's to say the torpedo launchers can't be moved one deck below and be fired from the openings at the back of the ship? Wouldn't that in theory also help lower the ship's center of gravity as the torpedo launchers are now riding lower in the ship? Space on the right of the RHIB be used to store additional torpedoes?

Even if the torpedo launchers stayed on the same deck within the "UAV hanger", what's to prevent a UAV from being stored in the middle and having crew merely roll them out through left or right door when being deployed and vice-versa? That shouldn't block the torpedo launchers then.

Also, not trying to bring back an ASW argument, but couldn't sonar buoys be launched on miniature rockets? I'm talking about the buoys that usually get launched from an ASW aircraft like the P3s. If that's possible, couldn't a UAV be the eye in the sky that picks up the signals from the buoys and forwards back to ship?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Can some one explain these openings. Are those really necessary ? Those could be considered weak spots on the ship that could be exploited by the opponents.

View attachment 6733

They are to allow the crew to air their laundry. (look at the right of the picture) :p

oa0xw0.jpg


Seriously though, I'm not sure. If I was to hazard a guess, I might suggest that they could serve as cargo doors to allow supplies and equipment to be loaded and unloaded a lot easier, and which might also allow the top deck to be designed slightly differently (ie, doors and the routing of the passageways could be designed differently if supplies and equipment does not need to be loaded onto the top of the ship and than carried down to the stores below).

The area could also serve as a rest and recreation area where the crew could get out and enjoy some fresh air (maybe have a smoke) and see the sights (warships don't tend to be over-supplied with portholes) and generally relax while off duty without getting in the way with operations as they might if they do wondering on the helipad or on top of the hanger.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
So we've seen mods already being made which I think makes it fair to say we shouldn't discount any more changes. Under that premise, what's to say the torpedo launchers can't be moved one deck below and be fired from the openings at the back of the ship? Wouldn't that in theory also help lower the ship's center of gravity as the torpedo launchers are now riding lower in the ship? Space on the right of the RHIB be used to store additional torpedoes?

The openings at the back of the ship would not be a good place to put the torpedo launchers. For one thing, they are taken up with mooring equipment that cannot be moved to somewhere else. For another, it is generally not a great idea to be lobbing torpedos into your own wake as the disturbance would interfere with the torpedo's homing capabilities and you also run the small risk of the fish homing in on your own props. :p

Besides, as I have already pointed out, designs are all about prioritizing, optimizing and rationing. If they had space in the lower decks, I am sure they would have stuff the torpedos down there already.

Even if the torpedo launchers stayed on the same deck within the "UAV hanger", what's to prevent a UAV from being stored in the middle and having crew merely roll them out through left or right door when being deployed and vice-versa? That shouldn't block the torpedo launchers then.

That's basically what I already suggested. ;)

Also, not trying to bring back an ASW argument, but couldn't sonar buoys be launched on miniature rockets? I'm talking about the buoys that usually get launched from an ASW aircraft like the P3s. If that's possible, couldn't a UAV be the eye in the sky that picks up the signals from the buoys and forwards back to ship?

Planes and helos usually drop sonar buoys over a wide area. Sonar buoys themselves also tend to be low powered and have limited range. You will need a pretty big rocket to launch the buoys to a useful range. I am also not sure standard sonar buoys are stressed to be launched by rockets.

If you have a good sized UAV and want to deploy sonar buoys, the most effective and economical way of doing it would be to have the UVA drop them.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
As you can see, judging based on the crewmen for prospective, the doors to the hanger is more than wide enough to allow the torpedo launchers to swing out with room to spare, and the two doors only account for about half the length of the whole hanger.
Actually, the width of the torpedo areas in both photos are almost exactly the same, both of them just slightly more than double the width of a torpedo launcher.


The FL300 launcher on top does not appear to have a mechanical reload system in place, thus it should not need much deck penetration, neither should the small mast. That leaves plenty of room to store a UAV there if so desired.
Whatever that space is in between the torpedo launchers, it’s not for a UAV. The biggest reason IMO is common sense. Why would they make things harder on themselves by moving UAV’s out the sides where the launchers are, then back towards the helipad, instead of creating a hangar door directly facing the helipad? There are two windows there instead, one of them presumably for a control station. The other could easily have been a hangar door, if that space in between were actually for a hangar. This alone makes it extremely unlikely there is an actual UAV hangar on that ship. There is basically no good reason at all not to have put a door facing the helipad. Unless of course the reason to put a door there does not exist because there is no UAV hangar there in the first place.


I am not sure what construction photos you are referring to, perhaps you would like to post them or link to them as it is a lot more helpful to get your point across if you can show us exactly what you are talking about.
I’m referring to the first photo you just posted, where you can clearly see the wall in the back of the torpedo area. Not necessarily ironclad proof, but it definitely does not look deep enough to make it to the starboard “vent” or whatever it is. Besides, even if there was extra space directly forward of the torpedo launchers, it sure wouldn’t be for the storage of UAV’s. Instead, what they would have done is move whatever they are using that area in between the launchers for now (the area beneath the HQ-10) and relocate that to the areas in front of the launchers, then use the cleared-out area for a UAV hangar, with a hangar door that directly faces the helipad.


However, if you look at this picture, you can clearly see that there are doors leading into the hanger so it would appear that the hanger is through and through so I really have no idea what you are talking about with close passages.
I’m talking about doors FROM the helipad to the rest of the ship. More specifically from the wall facing the helipad. There are none. So if you land on the helipad there is no other way for you to get to the rest of the ship except through one of the passageways right beside the torpedo launchers, which is why I said those areas need to be wide enough to both accommodate the swing of the launchers as well as the movement of personnel. Which is exactly what that other photo of the PLAN torpedo launchers I posted is meant to show. They are the same width and serve the same dual purposes.


Now having said that, it is also possible that instead of keeping that space clear for a future UAV, the PLAN will store munitions, spares and equipment needed to service and resupply any helos that lands on the helipad.

That however, reinforces the question of just what exactly they are using all that space in the lower aft decks for. There are two full decks below the helipad, if they did not need that space for something, it should have been perfectly feasible to find the space needed for the torpedo launchers on one of those decks. That way, all they needed to do was make the hanger a little taller and they would have had themselves a full helo hanger instead of the curiosity they do now.

That possibility would not have somehow escaped the notice of the designers, so it was a deliberate choice to forgo the full hanger capacity in order to have more room below decks. Would be interesting to know what was so important.
Neither of us being ship designers, I’m not sure how you can make any definitive conclusions about designers choices based on assumptions of ‘extra space’. Neither you nor I know what they are using most of the area inside the ship for. The best we can do is whatever can be seen from the outside. The little Paintshop 056 floorplan I made up was purely speculation. There could be dozens of things that I don’t know about and could need a lot of space inside a ship. Whatever we can conclude with reasonable certainty is whatever we can directly observe right now. Anything else is just speculation. I would give sailors more credibility in their speculation on the internals of a ship (e.g. BD popeye), but I am not, and I’m guessing you are not either.


So we've seen mods already being made which I think makes it fair to say we shouldn't discount any more changes. Under that premise, what's to say the torpedo launchers can't be moved one deck below and be fired from the openings at the back of the ship? Wouldn't that in theory also help lower the ship's center of gravity as the torpedo launchers are now riding lower in the ship? Space on the right of the RHIB be used to store additional torpedoes?
I don’t think there is enough room on the port side for a torpedo launcher, unless you want to mostly or totally obstruct the mooring area on that side.


Even if the torpedo launchers stayed on the same deck within the "UAV hanger", what's to prevent a UAV from being stored in the middle and having crew merely roll them out through left or right door when being deployed and vice-versa? That shouldn't block the torpedo launchers then.
See above for the answer to that.


Also, not trying to bring back an ASW argument, but couldn't sonar buoys be launched on miniature rockets? I'm talking about the buoys that usually get launched from an ASW aircraft like the P3s. If that's possible, couldn't a UAV be the eye in the sky that picks up the signals from the buoys and forwards back to ship?
They could, but this ship does not possess any rocket launchers, so how would the ship launch these sonobuoys? Unless you design some that can replace the SAM’s in the HQ-10 launcher. Though I highly doubt the PLAN would be interested in that. It would make far more sense to have a UAV that can carry both a dipping sonar and a torpedo, so that you have a rapidly-deployed means of both detecting and attacking a sub in one complete package. The UAV would fly out to a suspected location, lower its sonar, and if a sub is detected, drop its torpedo immediately to commence the attack.
 

ChinaGuy

Banned Idiot
They are to allow the crew to air their laundry. (look at the right of the picture) :p

More likely a crew relaxation/recreation/assembly/meeting area. They want the day light in but keep the sun or rain out. For such a small ship, there's nowhere else for the crew to go for a bit of fresh air. The Chinese are not into sun bathing on the helo deck. The openings are also good for disembarking marines/special forces in all 3 directions at once, as well as for rescuing operations. I can imagine Chinese fishermen or passengers hopping on board from an adjacent boat if they needed help. See those holes on the side and corner ? Those are for linking up with boats.
 
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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
More likely a crew relaxation/recreation/assembly/meeting area. They want the day light in but keep the sun or rain out. For such a small ship, there's nowhere else for the crew to go for a bit of fresh air. The Chinese are not into sun bathing on the helo deck. The openings are also good for disembarking marines/special forces in all 3 directions at once, as well as for rescuing operations. I can imagine Chinese fishermen or passengers hopping on board from an adjacent boat if they needed help. See those holes on the side and corner ? Those are for linking up with boats.
I... don't... even...
 

no_name

Colonel
Could the type 056 tow a smaller ship behind her through the back openings?

Like a rogue or malfunctioned fishing boat, or something.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
That's because those openings in the back are not hangars. They need to be that wide so that the launchers can swing out sideways without bumping into the walls. They also serve as passageways for people to get from the helipad to the rest of the ship and vice versa because there is no door on the wall facing the helipad, just two vents or maybe windows. Also note that recent construction photos show that these passageways terminate fairly close to the forward end of the launchers, which reinforces the likelihood that they serve the role of torpedo bay + passageway. Even if you manage to stick a small UAV helo in one or both of those passageways, you would then be unable to use the launcher on that side or both sides, a potentially fatal gamble if an enemy sub is about to annihilate you.

BTW here is a photo I posted earlier in the thread showing just how wide these torpedo areas need to be. Note that the area where the launcher is located is significantly wider than where the photographer is standing:


torp4y.jpg


Sorry to be a stickler here, but are you sure those are torpedo tubes launcher? Because that fella in the dark reddish shirt is sort of in the way, plus there isn't the mechanisms for launching it.

Here is my impression of torpedo tube launcher.

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