056 class FFL/corvette

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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
i.e. said:
now if they can laid down and build 052D in this rate all over china.

this would be required as a minimum to challenge the USN Pacfic fleet.
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It would be a total waste of resources and accomplish very little in terms of strategic goals. A good Navy is one that is made up of various types of vessels that is balanced well and compliment each other. If China decides to go crazy and build 100 052Ds or even 055s they can probably do it but with massive strain on their budget but what's the point of having 100 modern DDGs or even CGs if you have nothing else? in some theatre of operations a small platform can be even more effective than a large platform except it cost 1/4 as much and even less to operate.

USN need a lot of DDGs because they are a true blue water navy with a dozen CVNs, FOBs and bases spread all over the world. China hasn't gotten there yet nor is that their goal at the moment. Their goal in the forseeable future is just the 2nd island chain but mostly they are still a green water type Navy.

I would say a couple dozen or so modern capable destroyers like a 052C/D is more than plenty for PLAN at the moment.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
i.e. said:
No, navy was always independent organization from its inception.

strategic wise (and some times operationally) it may be playing 2nd fiddle for the army true.

the fleet building was always driven by resource expediency

the first true fleet building program (-051 destroyer/ Replenisher/ Sub Rescure/ Ocean tugs) was laid down as a piggy back of the DF-5 ICBM program needs. although not a minority in PLAN secretly feels that thats a good opportunity to increase the range and capability of PLAN, long the junior partner in PLA organization.

PLAN strategy was driven more by lack of resources and technology then some fundamental lack of will to expand into blue water operations.
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I don't think that is totally true. In the 80's, the army has the primary responsibility to defend the territorial integrity of China . The idea was to lured the foe into the mainland and engulf it in people war. Plus China was self sufficient then in oil and other mineral resources they even export oil back then No car on the road no overseas travel .Everybody goes around by bike or buses. China has yet to become the trading nation that she is now . Even now most of the oil imported is for transportation. Power are mostly coal fired generating station. Back then China export is around 300 million dollars or so

So it is not lack of will or intent . But the doctrine at that time doesn't need to have a blue water navy .Plus of course the budget and technological base won't allow it anyway because thru the 80's the budget is around 20 billion dollar US

Now is different story.China now do need blue water navy that is the reason of current naval build up
 
L

luhai

Banned Idiot
Hendrik_2000 said:
I don't think that is totally true. In the 80's, the army has the primary responsibility to defend the territorial integrity of China . The idea was to lured the foe into the mainland and engulf it in people war. Plus China was self sufficient then in oil and other mineral resources they even export oil back then No car on the road no overseas travel .Everybody goes around by bike or buses. China has yet to become the trading nation that she is now . Even now most of the oil imported is for transportation. Power are mostly coal fired generating station. Back then China export is around 300 million dollars or so

So it is not lack of will or intent . But the doctrine at that time doesn't need to have a blue water navy .Plus of course the budget and technological base won't allow it anyway because thru the 80's the budget is around 20 billion dollar US

Now is different story.China now do need blue water navy that is the reason of current naval build up
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In the west eyes of what a Navy does, namely offensive roles, this is true. However, in the history of China. The navy's job is basically stop or deter a enemy amphibious landing, and when strong escort troop transports. It is an independent force, but it was not a major force. And it never adjunct to the army. If the navy did its job, the army don't even have to fight, at least with sea borne enemies. This idea got planted in western literature due to the rather poor translation of People Liberation Army Navy. Jun in Chinese which any sort of military force, not just army.

The navy has made a rather nice documentary for it's 60 anniversary. It's a good watch.
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Lion said:
PLAN is already a blue water navy. But not in term of USN sizes.
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I said 'true' blue water navy. There is a difference but I'm not going to go down a path of arguing semantics. Having the capability to cross oceans does not necessarily constitute a blue water Navy but neither here nor there...;)
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
kwaigonegin said:
I said 'true' blue water navy. There is a difference but I'm not going to go down a path of arguing semantics. Having the capability to cross oceans does not necessarily constitute a blue water Navy but neither here nor there...;)
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She is already. Explain why not? Probably you think Royal Navy or French Navy is not blue water Navy too?
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Lion said:
She is already. Explain why not? Probably you think Royal Navy or French Navy is not blue water Navy too?
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The PLAN is getting there. They are operating more and more in the blue water. They are building a force that will continue that trend.

So in the sense that they can get their vessels into the blue water and send replensihment ships with them to keep them there for extended periods, they do indeed operate in the blue water. Not that often, and not that large of groups, but they are getting out there now on an increasing basis.

However, there is no world wide infrastructure to support them in this.

What bases does the PLAN have...their own bases...around the world?

How large a group can they send out for indefinite periods?

What influence do they bring to those areas far from their onw shores or immediate area of influnce on a maritime basis?

I am talking about the ability to exert the type of large influence that the PLAN can have right now within the 1st island chain in the China Sea. Where they are reconginzed as being able to exert that type of influence wherever they go.

I believe this is what kwaigonegin is talking about.

It will be decades before the PLAN has those type of capabilities and influence in place anywhere they go, and are recognized by the rest of world as such.

Right now, all of these things can be said about some other nations. If I had to place nations in five tiers regarding that type of capability it would be like this (an "x" indicates that country has a fixed wing aoircraft carrier capability either in existance or currently building) :

1st Tier - Premiere Capability
United States Navy (x)

2nd Tier - Strong Capability
UK Royal Navy (x)
French Navy (x)
Russian Navy (x)

3rd Tier - Good Capability
Spanish Navy (x)
Italian Navy (x)

4th Tier - Some Capability
Japan's JMSDF
Australian Royal Navy
Korean Navy
Canadian Navy
Indian Navy (x)
Chinese PLAN (x)
German Navy
Israel Navy

5th Tier - Little or no capability
Brazilian Navy (x)
New Zealand Navy
Swedish Navy
Norway Navy
Indonesian Navy
Malaysian Navy
Pakistan Navy
Iranian Navy
Thailand Navy (x)
MExican Navy
Chilian Navy
Argentine Navy
Saudi Navy
Egyptian Navy
Vietnam Navy

Note, this does not mean that one or the other of these is necessarily more powerful than the other in local areas. It just relates to what bases they have abroad, what they can send aborad and have supported for long periods, and what influence they exert while doing so when they are out there, almost anywhere in the world.

Anyhow, it is more a discussion about extent of Blue Water operations and capability than it is about the ability to get their forces there.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
Jeff Head said:
The PLAN is getting there. They are operating more and more in the blue water. They are building a force that will continue that trend.

So in the sense that they can get their vessels into the blue water and send replensihment ships with them to keep them there for extended periods, they do indeed operate in the blue water. Not that often, and not that large of groups, but they are getting out there now on an increasing basis.

However, there is no world wide infrastructure to support them in this.

What bases does the PLAN have...their own bases...around the world?

How large a group can they send out for indefinite periods?

What influence do they bring to those areas far from their onw shores or immediate area of influnce on a maritime basis?

I am talking about the ability to exert the type of large influence that the PLAN can have right now within the 1st island chain in the China Sea. Where they are reconginzed as being able to exert that type of influence wherever they go.

I believe this is what kwaigonegin is talking about.

It will be decades before the PLAN has those type of capabilities and influence in place anywhere they go, and are recognized by the rest of world as such.

Right now, all of these things can be said about some other nations. If I had to place nations in five tiers regarding that type of capability it would be like this (an "x" indicates that country has a fixed wing aoircraft carrier capability either in existance or currently building) :

1st Tier - Premiere Capability
United States Navy (x)

2nd Tier - Strong Capability
UK Royal Navy (x)
French Navy (x)
Russian Navy (x)

3rd Tier - Good Capability
Spanish Navy (x)
Italian Navy (x)

4th Tier - Some Capability
Japan's JMSDF
Australian Royal Navy
Korean Navy
Canadian Navy
Indian Navy (x)
Chinese PLAN (x)
German Navy
Israel Navy

5th Tier - Little or no capability
Brazilian Navy (x)
New Zealand Navy
Swedish Navy
Norway Navy
Indonesian Navy
Malaysian Navy
Pakistan Navy
Iranian Navy
Thailand Navy (x)
MExican Navy
Chilian Navy
Argentine Navy
Saudi Navy
Egyptian Navy
Vietnam Navy

Note, this does not mean that one or the other of these is necessarily more powerful than the other in local areas. It just relates to what bases they have abroad, what they can send aborad and have supported for long periods, and what influence they exert while doing so when they are out there, almost anywhere in the world.

Anyhow, it is more a discussion about extent of Blue Water operations and capability than it is about the ability to get their forces there.
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I am sure kwaigonegin and you are on the wrong key... What he refers to definitely is in terms of equipment, extend of operation and amount of offensive it carries.
 
F

franco-russe

Senior Member
Nordlys said:
Franco!
It is hidden behind the nearest crane and the scaffolding. But you can see the radar on the mainmast inbetween the "legs" of the crane and backside of the chimney..

On CDF there is a picture (post#30 from 4 July), where you see it clearer!
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Thanks, I think I am getting it, clearly seeing two funnels on the 4 July pictures. It is a bit embarrassing that my strained eyes needed the help of aurora borealis to see this.

So exit the launch of LN 3 in June. But we actually get a good grip on Liaonan construction: LN 3 and 4 must have been laid down after the launches of LN 1 and 2 in August and November 2012, respectively. The pattern seems to be that Lushun launches follow those at Wuhan with a delay of less than a month. That means that LN 3 should be launched in August and LN 4 in November. Two a year, in other words.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
franco-russe said:
It looks generally allright, apart from some spelling errors: Shipyard names should be Huangpu and Liaonan, ship names BENGBU and QINZHOU.

I have Liaonan Hull 3 launched in June, but I am not sure. Escobar has Hull 2 as a returnee at the yard, Hulls 3 and 4 in the drydock (I am not sure I see more than one) and Hull 5 as sections in the assembly area.

The latter is really the most interesting, as it was expected that the initial order was for four. Are they already into the second series of 20?
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Ok...take a look now:


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