055 Large Destroyer Thread II

[HardBall]

I don't think Rapid Dragon is designed to be employed in isolation. I would envision it would be used in tandem with other platforms/systems as part of large scale saturation attacks. A weapons system can offer value outside of its direct use, ie causing an adversary to divert resources to counter it. At a procurement level, resources being channeled for R&D and production of ultra long range SAMs to counter Rapid Drston will result in less resources for procurement of other weapons systems. At operational level, more VLS tubes on board 055s/052Ds being dedicated to SAMs to defend against saturation attacks will result in less tubes available for carrying offensive missiles.

Right, Rapid Dragon will likely be deployed with a screen of air superiority platforms in front of it, and some long range surveillance platforms to monitor any emerging threats. Although I think if there is a 300 NM type of SAM / AA, then it would still be able to easily threaten the C-17/130. But on the other hand it would certainly also expose the defense sides own AWACS and ELINT. So it is a cat and mouse game, it's always going to be difficult to know what is involved in operational planning, for such a long range strike mission with an unconventional launch platform.

I am just trying to look at this in a dispassionate way and put on the analyst hat. Seems like the most immediate solution would be something like the quad packing of ESSM-like short-medium range SAM system. Will need to have semi-active + data-link for midcourse correction. Terminal guidance may need something in addition to active radar.

Although cheaper option might be to add a couple more CWIS if they can deconflict easily.

 

[lcloo]

To counter the long range missiles like Rapid Dragon, J20 would be a part of the solution by configuring its weapon load to have long range air to air missiles. J20 can be positioned around 1,000km to 1,500km away from China's coast, armed with PL-15 or PL-17 under the wing albeit with a degree in lost of stealth.

500KM or so behind J20 would be a J16, J11B, J10 and J35 ready to pick up any incoming missiles that managed to get through J20's interception. And at sea, type 055, 052D and type 054A/B will form another layer of air defense.

Land based SAMs will form a few more layers of regional and local point defense. EW warfare would be carried out extentively as well.

The key is early detection and tracking of incoming threat from the air.

 

[by78]

A nice magazine scan for the weekend.

 

[HardBall]

To counter the long range missiles like Rapid Dragon, J20 would be a part of the solution by configuring its weapon load to have long range air to air missiles. J20 can be positioned around 1,000km to 1,500km away from China's coast, armed with PL-15 or PL-17 under the wing albeit with a degree in lost of stealth.

500KM or so behind J20 would be a J16, J11B, J10 and J35 ready to pick up any incoming missiles that managed to get through J20's interception. And at sea, type 055, 052D and type 054A/B will form another layer of air defense.

Land based SAMs will form a few more layers of regional and local point defense. EW warfare would be carried out extentively as well.

The key is early detection and tracking of incoming threat from the air.

Definitely valid points, however sometimes operations away from PLAAF and land based AEW must be considered. And at time, its not even clear that carrier based component would be available.

 

[W20]

"As a defence watcher who grew up on saturation attacks being domain of the Soviets, it's wild seeing similar things being adopted by USAF/USN now."

E x a c t l y

The timing could not be more precise: now (ca. 2030-35) the Chinese navy is/will be the US Navy of the 1980s, and America is exactly the USSR, even with all its details: Julian in a London dungeon occupies the place of the author of Archipelago Gulag.

I imagine that 055 will be located about 500 km ahead of the large aircraft carrier. The early warning flying radar around 600-700 (?) not sure, and the stealth fighters and the 'missile truck' with the PL-17 out there more or less ready to do a sprint of say 200 km.

 

[HardBall]

"As a defence watcher who grew up on saturation attacks being domain of the Soviets, it's wild seeing similar things being adopted by USAF/USN now."

E x a c t l y

The timing could not be more precise: now (ca. 2030-35) the Chinese navy is/will be the US Navy of the 1980s, and America is exactly the USSR, even with all its details: Julian in a London dungeon occupies the place of the author of Archipelago Gulag.

I imagine that 055 will be located about 500 km ahead of the large aircraft carrier. The early warning flying radar around 600-700 (?) not sure, and the stealth fighters and the 'missile truck' with the PL-17 out there more or less ready to do a sprint of say 200 km.

I largely agree that the use case for something like rapid dragon within the second island chain (at least in areas not close to Guam or northern Marianas) is risky at best, since the large amount of long range munitions and all the sensor platforms that would be covering that region. Although far away from the Chinese coast, no such bubble would exist. And even if operating close to the near seas, it would still be wise to have its own line of defense that's capable of countering saturation attacks that have low range of detection.

However, I would definitely not put US navy in the same strategic position as the Soviets in say the early 1980s. The soviet back then relied overwhelmingly on long range anti surface missiles like the Basalt or the Vulcan from surface combatants, plus significantly number of SSGNs patrolling in the near seas to counter American threats. USN today still largely use strike packages from the carriers, and sometimes in conjunction with land based aircraft for opposing surface fleets, very different operational regimes and tactics.

The answer back then for the USN were Aegis combat system and Phalanx. So I would assume PLAN would adopt some today's analog of those technologies to counter. So the most logical answer the back and forth, would be quad packed medium range air defense, and/or some type of new CIWS that's either more numerous or with longer engagement range.

 

[AndrewS]

"As a defence watcher who grew up on saturation attacks being domain of the Soviets, it's wild seeing similar things being adopted by USAF/USN now."

E x a c t l y

The timing could not be more precise: now (ca. 2030-35) the Chinese navy is/will be the US Navy of the 1980s, and America is exactly the USSR, even with all its details: Julian in a London dungeon occupies the place of the author of Archipelago Gulag.

I imagine that 055 will be located about 500 km ahead of the large aircraft carrier. The early warning flying radar around 600-700 (?) not sure, and the stealth fighters and the 'missile truck' with the PL-17 out there more or less ready to do a sprint of say 200 km.

If you want a picket ship some 500km ahead of a carrier, a sole Type-055 is overkill and a juicy enough target in its own right.

A Type-052D would be more suitable, as it still has a radar which is more than capable enough of detecting incoming large aircraft, along with enough long-range SAMs to deal with them.

 

[5unrise]

If you want a picket ship some 500km ahead of a carrier, a sole Type-055 is overkill and a juicy enough target in its own right.

A Type-052D would be more suitable, as it still has a radar which is more than capable enough of detecting incoming large aircraft, along with enough long-range SAMs to deal with them.

Diagrams I've seen of USN carrier battle groups almost always put the SSN up the front as a picket, alongside carrier aircraft CAP. After the SSN come the DDGs, and followed by the CG in the middle and obviously the carrier and AOR at the core. Back when frigates were in service with the USN, the frigates would be deployed in an outer ring but still behind the SSN, with the DDG and CG after the frigates. I presume that's because the frigates served as an ASW screen.

 

[Gloire_bb]

+ 4 x 055: YJ-21
+ DF-26, DF-27 (!?)
+ H-6: monstrous YJ-21: the H-6 bomber flies in with its escort and would launch between the large carrier and the large destroyer

= the US Navy carriers have to move away and PLAN dominates the ocean between the first and second island chain.

This is a weird, range-based portrayal of naval combat. it doesn't work this way.

Dominating the ocean between the first and second island chains isn't possible through naval power alone, regardless of the numbers and quality. It requires land control.

Moreover - it doesn't make sense, as a navy capable of challenging the USN there isn't exactly chain-limited, and can aim for far more important targets.
re:beginning of the Pacific war.

 

[asif iqbal]

Type 055 should be equipped with hypersonic missiles in future

fast, hard to track and almost impossible to intercept