055 Large Destroyer Thread II

[TK3600]

It is probably in the PLAN's interest to not pursue a "Sino Zumwalt" given the nature that program has taken.

Unless you mean a "generic future large surface combatant with further signature reduction, integrated propulsion and further advancement of general subsystems" in which case, at this stage we do not know, but it is expected that a new variant of 055 or successor to 055 will emerge with those features this decade.

055 is the best of its class, and it is already getting succesor this decade? Meanwhile Ticonderoga class will not be replaced until 055's successor comes in. This is a 2 gen gap. Almost unthinkable to have PLAN 2 gen ahead of USN but it is happening.

 

[Blitzo]

055 is the best of its class, and it is already getting succesor this decade? Meanwhile Ticonderoga class will not be replaced until 055's successor comes in. This is a 2 gen gap. Almost unthinkable to have PLAN 2 gen ahead of USN but it is happening.

Don't talk about things as if they're absolutes.

It's possible that 055 may get a new variant or successor design later this decade. Don't overreach it otherwise.

 

[Cloud_Nine_]

Do we have to wait another 10 years before we see these Sino Zumwalts? I see no signs of them being constructed anytime soon despite Dr. Ma's insistence on building so called "all-capacity" warships.

China's geopolitical situation naturally means PLAN will almost always pursue mature and proven capabilities (with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS) so we will see gradual and slow-paced upgrades (as with the current 052Ds and 054As) instead of almost complete redesigns.

Ship design is a complicated and delicate business and since they already have a very good hull with 055, I personally don't think we will see much deviation from that design even with the rumored new 052D-sized DDG. The problem with Zumwalt's wave-piercing bow tumblehome hull is that a 055 hull or the DDG(X) hull in this pic already offers a ton of radar signature reduction without having to sacrifice space and weight (speed and price).


So going back to your question I certainly think a reverse bow Zumwalt-like hull isn't completely off the table, but just highly unlikely. There are a lot of viable options in between a traditional hull and a Zumwalt hull, and PLAN already has a good one with 055, so why not use it?

 

[ChongqingHotPot92]

China's geopolitical situation naturally means PLAN will almost always pursue mature and proven capabilities (with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS) so we will see gradual and slow-paced upgrades (as with the current 052Ds and 054As) instead of almost complete redesigns.

Ship design is a complicated and delicate business and since they already have a very good hull with 055, I personally don't think we will see much deviation from that design even with the rumored new 052D-sized DDG. The problem with Zumwalt's wave-piercing bow tumblehome hull is that a 055 hull or the DDG(X) hull in this pic already offers a ton of radar signature reduction without having to sacrifice space and weight (speed and price).
View attachment 110521

So going back to your question I certainly think a reverse bow Zumwalt-like hull isn't completely off the table, but just highly unlikely. There are a lot of viable options in between a traditional hull and a Zumwalt hull, and PLAN already has a good one with 055, so why not use i

IEP would be the key. A mature IEP would open the door to a whole range of weapon options.

 

[gelgoog]

China needs a naval gas turbine with same power as the Rolls-Royce MT30. Maybe after CJ-2000 comes out they will be able to adapt it for naval purposes.

I think the main thing with the Zumwalt, rather than the design of the hull, is that it only uses two gas turbines and yet has more displacement than the Ticonderoga. Precisely because it has twin MT30 gas turbines with intercooler and IEPS.

 

[Cloud_Nine_]

China needs a naval gas turbine with same power as the Rolls-Royce MT30. Maybe after CJ-2000 comes out they will be able to adapt it for naval purposes.

I think the main thing with the Zumwalt, rather than the design of the hull, is that it only uses two gas turbines and yet has more displacement than the Ticonderoga. Precisely because it has twin MT30 gas turbines with intercooler and IEPS.

They do have 40MW class GTs. AFIK they began to do concept designs for a high-power & high-efficiency GT about 10~15 years ago. The assignment was given to the 606th Institute of AECC and the 703th Institute of CSIC for competitive bidding. The AECC team's QC400 is developed from the QD185 which gets its core engine from WS10, while the CSIC team's CGT40IC comes from CGT25M (GT-25000). Both incorporate indirect cooling like the WR-21.

606 completed full working condition testing of the initial prototype of QC400 back in 2015 and received the National Defense Science and Technology Progress award in 2016. From their news source in 2018 and 2019, they had a full working QC400 in testing already. I am not aware of the progress on CGT40IC. Apparently, they also have a 33MW CGT25+ which is similar to LM2500+G4.

 

[Lethe]

Do we have to wait another 10 years before we see these Sino Zumwalts? I see no signs of them being constructed anytime soon despite Dr. Ma's insistence on building so called "all-capacity" warships.

Electrical engineer Admiral Ma Weiming's vision of the "all-electric" warship reminds me of nuclear engineer Admiral Hyman Rickover's vision for a US Navy composed entirely of large, nuclear-powered surface combatants and resulting hostility to more modest programs like the FFG-7 frigate, and indeed to gas turbine propulsion in general. I'm not suggesting a close analogy between the two persons here, only the potential for one's particular field of expertise to be zealously pursued at the expense of more holistic considerations.

China's geopolitical situation naturally means PLAN will almost always pursue mature and proven capabilities (with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS) so we will see gradual and slow-paced upgrades (as with the current 052Ds and 054As) instead of almost complete redesigns.

Rather than "gradual and slow-paced", I would describe PLAN's ongoing development of platforms and systems as iterative but quite rapid. There are few visible leaps for transformational technologies of the kind so beloved by the USA in particular, but we see smaller improvements being implemented at a higher cadence than just about anywhere else.

I agree that, as a new and already world-class platform, 055 has considerable potential for further development, and so there would not appear to be any need for a new large combatant platform to replace it in the near future.

 

[Cloud_Nine_]

Electrical engineer Admiral Ma Weiming's vision of the "all-electric" warship reminds me of nuclear engineer Admiral Hyman Rickover's vision for a US Navy composed entirely of large, nuclear-powered surface combatants and resulting hostility to more modest programs like the FFG-7 frigate, and indeed to gas turbine propulsion in general. I'm not suggesting a close analogy between the two persons here, only the potential for one's particular field of expertise to be zealously pursued at the expense of more holistic considerations.



Rather than "gradual and slow-paced", I would describe PLAN's ongoing development of platforms and systems as iterative but quite rapid. There are few visible leaps for transformational technologies of the kind so beloved by the USA in particular, but we see smaller improvements being implemented at a higher cadence than just about anywhere else.

I agree that, as a new and already world-class platform, 055 has considerable potential for further development, and so there would not appear to be any need for a new large combatant platform to replace it in the near future.

Yeah relatively "slow" or gradual compared to themselves. It's just that they are generally fielding capabilities faster than anyone around.

 

[davidau]

China's geopolitical situation naturally means PLAN will almost always pursue mature and proven capabilities (with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS) so we will see gradual and slow-paced upgrades (as with the current 052Ds and 054As) instead of almost complete redesigns.

Ship design is a complicated and delicate business and since they already have a very good hull with 055, I personally don't think we will see much deviation from that design even with the rumored new 052D-sized DDG. The problem with Zumwalt's wave-piercing bow tumblehome hull is that a 055 hull or the DDG(X) hull in this pic already offers a ton of radar signature reduction without having to sacrifice space and weight (speed and price).
View attachment 110521

So going back to your question I certainly think a reverse bow Zumwalt-like hull isn't completely off the table, but just highly unlikely. There are a lot of viable options in between a traditional hull and a Zumwalt hull, and PLAN already has a good one with 055, so why not use it?

(with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS). CV-18, from start, has been designed and integrated with EMALS, why do you say rumored CV-18 'redesign' with EMALS??? Besides this site is for 055 Large Destroyer Thread? Shouldn't it be placed on CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread?

 

[GTI]

(with the obvious exception being the rumored CV-18 redesign with EMALS). CV-18, from start, has been designed and integrated with EMALS, why do you say rumored CV-18 'redesign' with EMALS??? Besides this site is for 055 Large Destroyer Thread? Shouldn't it be placed on CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread?

The context is clearly there, the discussion was related to upgrades to / replacement of 055.

In terms of CV-18 redesign (from steam cats to EMALS) and resultant delay, I suggest you take time to peruse the thread you’ve posted.