055 Large Destroyer Thread II

[Lethe]

Also, I do think that the "10,000-ton destroyer" is just the new norm for a top-of-the-line surface combatant, i.e just the larger surface combatant and not the capital ship of the fleet. Generally speaking, major or "flagship" surface combatants have been getting larger. Leahy class cruisers don't weigh much more than a Type 052D, and California and Virginia class nuclear cruisers weren't larger than a Type 055 either. Even though USN is pushing for the so-called distributed fleet structure, the 10,000+ ton DDG(X) is still the second most important program in development according to CNO Gilday at SNA 2023.

Years ago I argued here that 055 was just a 21st century Burke (i.e. suitable for mass production as a replacement for 052D) and nobody seemed to like that idea very much. But with USN now eyeing a 13,500 tonne future large surface combatant, UK building an 8000 tonne frigate, Australia a 10,000(!) tonne frigate, Italy a 10,000 tonne destroyer, Japan a 20,000 tonne BMD ship, etc. I think the case for this is stronger than ever. A lot of folks have allowed themselves to be misled by Burke's long incumbency to think that anything larger than Burke must be some special "cruiser", "leader", "command ship", etc. when the truth is that the world has moved on a lot since Burke was designed in the 1980s.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Years ago I argued here that 055 was just a 21st century Burke (i.e. suitable for mass production as a replacement for 052D) and nobody seemed to like that idea very much.

Notably, PLAN doesn't either.

p.s. ships continue to 'slip up' since late 19th century. When they go beyond some reasonable dimension brackets (which proved to be remarkably persistent for well over 100 years) - they get replaced in rank-and-file roles by the new challenger from below.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Notably, PLAN doesn't either.

p.s. ships continue to 'slip up' since late 19th century. When they go beyond some reasonable dimension brackets (which proved to be remarkably persistent for well over 100 years) - they get replaced in rank-and-file roles by the new challenger from below.

Yes, that's true.

However, you don't see surface combatants with the displacement and dimensions of the Fletcher-class destroyers from the Second World War still playing the same role as the destroyers of today. In fact, we are seeing them playing the role of corvettes and offshore patrol vessels that can only stick around littorial waters and not going out to fight powerful enemy warships on the open ocean.

Keeping surface combatant designs in the lower brackets of displacement and dimension in today's and near-future's naval warfare development could risk incuring more cost to the PLAN than what is actually desired. Besides, there is only so much firepower and systems that you could pack inside a hull of a set displacement and dimension without risking overweighing the ship itself, especially with the growing size and weight of weapon loadouts, computers, radar systems etc which are expected on a seagoing surface combatant in mind.

For instance, how are you going to fit LRHW missiles into the VLS cells of the Mark 41 and Mark 57? You can't. This is why the DDG(X) offers options that allows swapping out some of the Mark 41 VLS cells onboard the ship with bigger VLS cells that can fit larger missiles expected to enter service in the future, such as the LRHW.

Today, we can already see that global naval powers in-general are up-arming and up-gunning their destroyers and frigates, which resulted in the increase in displacement and dimension of their frigates and destroyers as well. So why should China stick with 7000 tons of displacement for their destroyers and 3000 tons of displacement for their frigates into the late 2020s and even 2030s?

Of course, China (and just about any other navy out there) would definitely reach the upper brackets of dimension and displacement for their destroyer and frigate designs based on the current model and doctrine. But that's still at least a decade or two away, not now.

 

[TK3600]

I totally agree that 055 is the new norm for optimal high intensity combatant. It is evident that USN agrees by its DDGX program. At this point cruisers like Tico is redundant. Its role will be merged with 055 like ship. The question would be what will happen to ships of 052D class? Will it be directly replaced by 055? Will it be replaced indirectly with more capable frigates? Or will it acquire a new role by a ship of similar dusplacement?

 

[Paradigm]

IMO, the 052D and possible variants aren't going anytime soon. I would even venture to say PLAN has hit the sweet spot with 054s, 052s and O55s mix.

 

[Nill]

I totally agree that 055 is the new norm for optimal high intensity combatant. It is evident that USN agrees by its DDGX program. At this point cruisers like Tico is redundant. Its role will be merged with 055 like ship. The question would be what will happen to ships of 052D class? Will it be directly replaced by 055? Will it be replaced indirectly with more capable frigates? Or will it acquire a new role by a ship of similar dusplacement?

Wasn't another 052d spotted at some point in construction? if they are working on another batch PLAN thinks otherwise.

 

[Lethe]

I totally agree that 055 is the new norm for optimal high intensity combatant. It is evident that USN agrees by its DDGX program. At this point cruisers like Tico is redundant. Its role will be merged with 055 like ship. The question would be what will happen to ships of 052D class? Will it be directly replaced by 055? Will it be replaced indirectly with more capable frigates? Or will it acquire a new role by a ship of similar dusplacement?

It seems to me that what a "medium destroyer" can offer as a complement both to 055 and a more general purpose frigate, is high-end AAW capability in a more affordable package, allowing for greater numbers and correspondingly better availability and coverage. Cost control outside that core AAW role is therefore key to the desirability of the platform. 052D's organic helicopter is both superfluous to the AAW role and expensive in terms of both volume and personnel required, and should therefore be eliminated in favour of either size and cost reduction, increase in AAW performance, improved range/endurance/habitability, or some combination of these. Indeed, this was basically the original Burke pitch as a complement to Ticonderoga before the hangars were added with Flight IIA after so many "helo slots" were lost across the inventory with the retirement of Spruance, Knox and Perry.

 

[Gloire_bb]

I totally agree that 055 is the new norm for optimal high intensity combatant.

PLANs' opinion doesn't matter then? That's a powerful statement.

It seems to me that what a "medium destroyer" can offer as a complement both to 055 and a more general purpose frigate, is high-end AAW capability in a more affordable package, allowing for greater numbers and correspondingly better availability and coverage. Cost control outside that core AAW role is therefore key to the desirability of the platform. 052D's organic helicopter is both superfluous to the AAW role and expensive in terms of both volume and personnel required

Hangar and associated facilities aren't that expensive. And the helicopter itself/maintenance crew (the actual expensive part) aren't hard bolted to the ship - they're an asset of the whole fleet, asset that gains more value proportionally to the number of mobile pads capable of using it to the full capacity.

Finally, 052D isn't just an 'AAW' combatant. It's a fleet unit in the sense AA frigates are. ASW capability is an integral and indispensable part of that capability.

 

[TK3600]

Wasn't another 052d spotted at some point in construction? if they are working on another batch PLAN thinks otherwise.

It is normal to have old ship still being build after new one arrive. Existing ships will not retire either. Much like ZTZ-96 tanks was not terminated after ZTZ-99. Flankers did not retire or stop production either after J-20, but its role shifted. Suffice to say 055 will eventually switch from the high end to standard eventually.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Guys, it's nice to see an alternative universe within a specific thread, but as of January 2023 - 055 production run is stopped at original 8. 052DLs are being verifiably built, laid down, and ordered as we speak...