055 Large Destroyer Thread II

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I don't think I suggested in my previous posts that the duration between steel cutting and launch was greater than 2 years.
I've written 2 years, which is at the top end of my estimate. If you want me to give an estimate range, I'd say anywhere between 1.5-2 years for an 052D.
Ok, so the long end of your estimate means it takes double the time for Chinese shipbuilding to turn out a ship of 7,000-7,500t compared to 1 year for US shipbuilding to turn out a ship of 9,800t. That's fine, since we're both just speculating at this point.

Actually these points only support my position even more -- demonstrating that the actual commencement of construction is steel cutting/module fabrication.
The definition of "keel laying" varies between shipyards and the extend of their modular construction (not all modular construction is made equal).

That is why we use a unified starting point -- cutting of steel/module fabrication, rather than trying to guess what on earth "keel laying" means between one shipyard or observer or photographer or contractor. If we had a unified definition of keel laying that everyone adhered to, then maybe it would be of some use.
Who's "we"? Clearly this does not include Wikipedia or Austal or NAVSEA. If you want to use "steel cutting" that's fine and actually makes sense as a stand-in for tech freezing, but in the case of the 052D you then have to totally speculate when that actually was.

We can't have this discussion if you believe that the dates they're giving are actually meaningful.

I assumed there was some sort of understanding that this comparison of 055 and 052D construction meant there was an understanding of what a "like for like" comparison of their construction stages are, but if you are actually interpreting a February 2012 "keel laying" for 052D as the metric of choice then I don't know what I can say to demonstrate otherwise.
When you attribute "keel laying" to me I assume you mean module connection since I already made it clear modern day modular construction makes keel laying meaningless. If this standard is applied is applied to the 052D then February 2012 for module connection seems reasonable to me, and something less than a year prior to that date for "steel cutting".

As for duration of construction -- it entirely depends on the shipyard. Modular construction in theory allows for overall construction speed to be shortened compared to traditional construction, but that depends on the variety of other ships and concurrent projects being worked on (e.g.: modules can be constructed either in parallel or in sequence or even from different shipyards, and then only brought together for final assembly once the modules are all ready)
But what is a general benefit of modular construction is the ability to reduce the time that a hull spends taking up a final assembly area/hall/drydock while it gets constructed, relative to traditional methods where the keel is laid down. I suspect if we compared the amount of time that a 052D spent in its final assembly hall, it would be a fair bit shorter than the Ticonderoga class mentioned in question.
Overall duration of construction might depend on the shipyard, but if we're talking Chinese shipyards specifically, then no. I'm certainly not going to default assume it takes twice as long for Chinese shipbuilding to produce a 7kt hullform than it does for US shipbuilding to produce a 9.8kt hullform.

That is fine, but this forum also doesn't exist to convince skeptics anymore.
Things have changed a little bit since 2020.
You are not the "forum", and I am not a "skeptic" just because you hold a differing opinion from me.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
If you think the 055 was not designed with GaN in mind then we can only agree to disagree. As this is a 052D thread let's just leave it at that.

As I mentioned in a previous post, regardless of whether the first or first several 055s actually carry GaA or GaN onboard, it would be designed with the power generation and cooling needs for fitting on GaN in mind.
I cannot rule out that possibility, nor can I rule the possibility that GaN was ruled out for the 055, or at least for its initial iteration.

GaAs was definitively the safer choice (if GaN was even an alternative choice at that time) for the main radar of a new class of ship that was already getting a bunch of new electronics. It seems to me that the slow iterative nature of the PLAN combined with the IMO relatively early timing of the design phase of the 055 suggests it is more likely the 055 is lugging around an uprated/enlarged 346A as its 346B. We do not know exactly what the extra cost in terms of computing, power, cooling, and space would have been needed to have a potential future GaN system designed into the ship from the get-go. If it is not already using a GaN radar right now, it may not have been cost effective to design in the extra requirements for one for a bunch of ships that would never use it; MFRs are quite expensive and I doubt a GaAs MFR would get swapped out for a GaN MFR during a midlife update. However, if you're going for an entirely new iteration like a "055A", especially one with IEP, many possibilities open up for redesign, power/cooling/computer uprating, etc.

TLDR, I think it wouldn't be wrong to believe that the 055 either uses GaN or GaAs but certainly to say there is significantly more evidence for one than the other is currently premature.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Ok, so the long end of your estimate means it takes double the time for Chinese shipbuilding to turn out a ship of 7,000-7,500t compared to 1 year for US shipbuilding to turn out a ship of 9,800t. That's fine, since we're both just speculating at this point.

Who's "we"? Clearly this does not include Wikipedia or Austal or NAVSEA. If you want to use "steel cutting" that's fine and actually makes sense as a stand-in for tech freezing, but in the case of the 052D you then have to totally speculate when that actually was.

The naval watching community at large, including this forum, going back years now.
If you don't want to abide by it, that's fine.

When you attribute "keel laying" to me I assume you mean module connection since I already made it clear modern day modular construction makes keel laying meaningless. If this standard is applied is applied to the 052D then February 2012 for module connection seems reasonable to me, and something less than a year prior to that date for "steel cutting".



Overall duration of construction might depend on the shipyard, but if we're talking Chinese shipyards specifically, then no. I'm certainly not going to default assume it takes twice as long for Chinese shipbuilding to produce a 7kt hullform than it does for US shipbuilding to produce a 9.8kt hullform.

Your faith in Chinese shipyards is surprising.
The time it takes for a new ship to have its construction done is very much dependent on the concurrent work going on.

JNCX is plagued by the inability to consistently track hull modules with completed hulls, but for DL it is fortunately a bit easier. For example, tracking these two 052Ds (circled green), their modules were first visible by satellite in the final assembly area (drydock) in December 2017, and they would be simultaneously launched on 10th May 2019, 1.5 years after their modules/keels were first "laid down" in the drydock, and thus at least multiple months and potentially up to a year after their steel was first cut.

1737349467568.png

The longer duration they spent in the drydock for assembly (not inclusive of steel cutting!) compared to the year it took for some Tico class cruisers to be built by the relevant US shipyard, is a result of the other activities going on in the shipyard at large -- namely the other ships that were being simultaneously built at the same time.
At DL this can be easiest seen due to them utilizing this large exposed drydock to track various hulls, but at JNCX this is more complex because various hulls are constructed variously under covered halls, or semi exposed areas in the yard, not to mention the vast array of other commercial ships that are built in the same yard.

So no, directly comparing the "overall time of construction" in a like for like manner is illogical, because the "overall time of construction" will vary depending on the other concurrent activity occurring in a given shipyard.
A more like for like comparison would be the launch rate of new ships constructed in a given portion of a yard for a certain period of time.
(One can look at say, how many ships Bath or Ingalls produced respectively during their production run periods in the 1980s to very early 1990s, compared to say JNCX in the early to mid 2010s with the consideration that the bulk of JNCX is dedicated to producing ships other than 052Ds and 055s)



You are not the "forum", and I am not a "skeptic" just because you hold a differing opinion from me.

That's fine, but just tone down your aggressiveness a little bit please. It really makes these discussions more unnecessarily hostile than they need to be.
That was a sentiment shared by people to you when you were active in the late 2010s to 2020.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
The naval watching community at large, including this forum, going back years now.
If you don't want to abide by it, that's fine.
I don't know for absolute sure, but I'm going to guess you never polled even a small fraction of either the naval watching community at large or even in this forum what the preferred definition of the beginning of construction of a naval ship is, or what the likely time interval is for a 052D to go from "steel cutting" to launch.

Your faith in Chinese shipyards is surprising.
The time it takes for a new ship to have its construction done is very much dependent on the concurrent work going on.

JNCX is plagued by the inability to consistently track hull modules with completed hulls, but for DL it is fortunately a bit easier. For example, tracking these two 052Ds (circled green), their modules were first visible by satellite in the final assembly area (drydock) in December 2017, and they would be simultaneously launched on 10th May 2019, 1.5 years after their modules/keels were first "laid down" in the drydock, and thus at least multiple months and potentially up to a year after their steel was first cut.

The longer duration they spent in the drydock for assembly (not inclusive of steel cutting!) compared to the year it took for some Tico class cruisers to be built by the relevant US shipyard, is a result of the other activities going on in the shipyard at large -- namely the other ships that were being simultaneously built at the same time.
At DL this can be easiest seen due to them utilizing this large exposed drydock to track various hulls, but at JNCX this is more complex because various hulls are constructed variously under covered halls, or semi exposed areas in the yard, not to mention the vast array of other commercial ships that are built in the same yard.

So no, directly comparing the "overall time of construction" in a like for like manner is illogical, because the "overall time of construction" will vary depending on the other concurrent activity occurring in a given shipyard.
A more like for like comparison would be the launch rate of new ships constructed in a given portion of a yard for a certain period of time.
(One can look at say, how many ships Bath or Ingalls produced respectively during their production run periods in the 1980s to very early 1990s, compared to say JNCX in the early to mid 2010s with the consideration that the bulk of JNCX is dedicated to producing ships other than 052Ds and 055s)
Ok, if you want to say that construction speed depends on other shipyard conditions, then fine because there is no way for anyone to verify this either way. Regardless, neither of us at this point can reasonably say when steel was cut for the first 052D.

That's fine, but just tone down your aggressiveness a little bit please. It really makes these discussions more unnecessarily hostile than they need to be.
That was a sentiment shared by people to you when you were active in the late 2010s to 2020.
Come on, you started with a fairly condescending statement, then tell me to tone it down when I don't back down to you talking down to me. This conversation did not have to involve appeals to authority or bandwagon fallacies at any point, or even your little ad hominem ascription of "skeptic". I hold a different opinion than you, I think I have held it up pretty well here, and that should really be enough.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Come on, you started with a fairly condescending statement, then tell me to tone it down when I don't back down to you talking down to me. This conversation did not have to involve appeals to authority or bandwagon fallacies at any point, or even your little ad hominem ascription of "skeptic". I hold a different opinion than you, I think I have held it up pretty well here, and that should really be enough.

No, this is not in response to the previous post, it is reflective of before I entered this conversation.

This forum has its fair share of polite and friendly debates and discussions, but over the years the manner in which you have conducted debates is one which has been notable, including in the last occasion when you were active on this forum.
I leave it there.
 

para80

Junior Member
Registered Member
I know people round here have mixed feelings on Tom Shugart, but he keeps coming up with useful imagery. In this case suggesting with decent evidence that there are indeed two 055s under construction at Dagushan. Note I think the #10 is a misidentification, I think thats an operational batch 1 055 moored for some other purpose there (it has a hull no on the helo pad). The first DN batch 2 should be across the bay fitting out. Image via Twitter (sigh, "X").

GhqbZbdX0AA1W6o.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I know people round here have mixed feelings on Tom Shugart, but he keeps coming up with useful imagery. In this case suggesting with decent evidence that there are indeed two 055s under construction at Dagushan. Note I think the #10 is a misidentification, I think thats an operational batch 1 055 moored for some other purpose there (it has a hull no on the helo pad). The first DN batch 2 should be across the bay fitting out. Image via Twitter (sigh, "X").

View attachment 143979

TBH I think this is less a reflection of Shugart and more a reflection of Airbus Defence and Space and being contracted to get the imagery.

Still, being able to correctly interpret imagery is still reflective of a degree of skill.


I agree the hull labelled no. 10 may be an operational batch 1 055.
 

davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
I know people round here have mixed feelings on Tom Shugart, but he keeps coming up with useful imagery. In this case suggesting with decent evidence that there are indeed two 055s under construction at Dagushan. Note I think the #10 is a misidentification, I think thats an operational batch 1 055 moored for some other purpose there (it has a hull no on the helo pad). The first DN batch 2 should be across the bay fitting out. Image via Twitter (sigh, "X").

View attachment 143979
 
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